Originally Posted by sj (Post 988463)

Some things creating some arguments.



4) A1 attempts a try near the basket. In a legitimate attempt to block the shot defender B1 misses the ball and slaps the backboard. As a result of the slap the backboard is moving. The ball goes off the glass, hits the moving rim, and bounces out. Ruling?

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 988724)

Lost in the fumble discussion is an interesting point about #4. I agree that in NFHS this is nothing. Many HS coaches think it's BI, and this may be in part because (correct me if I'm wrong) in NCAA it IS BI.

I believe that was an NCAA rule addition about four years ago, no?

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 988728)

I didn't think it was a T so I went to him before he reported and asked if he thought it was a block attempt (which I thought it was - ball and block attempt were on the same side of the basket and I thought the player was close to blocking the ball, he did hit the backboard very hard). His reply was "no" so there was nothing else to discuss further IMO.

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 988830)

Let's change the scenario a bit. Just want to see the right way to handle this:
You approach your partner with your question and his answer is, "Yes, but that doesn't matter," thereby revealing a misinterpretation of the rules.

Do you let him hang with it or try to get him to rescind the T (is that even possible)?

Originally Posted by sj (Post 988463)

Some things creating some arguments.

1) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands and goes backwards and away from the basket. He returns to the floor and takes 2-3 steps to get to the ball where he taps the ball to a teammate. Ruling?

2) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands and goes backwards and away from the basket. He returns to the floor and takes 2-3 steps to get to the ball where he grabs the ball regaining control. Ruling?

3) A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try. The ball is in the air when A2 shoves B1 and the official blows the whistle. After the whistle is blown the ball goes through the basket. Does the basket count?

4) A1 attempts a try near the basket. In a legitimate attempt to block the shot defender B1 misses the ball and slaps the backboard. As a result of the slap the backboard is moving. The ball goes off the glass, hits the moving rim, and bounces out. Ruling?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 988842)

Good to hear from you, SJ. Glad to see you're still kicking.

1 & 2 are fumbles. A fumble is an unintentional/accidental act. So for someone to say all the player can do is shoot or pass, those are intentional acts and it doesn't apply to this scenario. Also, if the player had not dribbled prior to jumping, certainly he can dribble.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 988857)

SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00) SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 988857)

Lah me. (in memory of Jurassic because he had a particular part in the previous debates on this)

In post #28 of this thread I provided the link to a previous discussion on this very action. That thread includes the correct NFHS ruling, which is traveling. The NFHS does not permit an exception for a fumble in this case as the NCAA does.

The ruling given below is the most recent issued by the NFHS and nothing has come out stating otherwise. You can also find this in our past interps thread.

SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 988859)

... because that player traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 988861)

I choose to agree with those that say this is not a violation. If you intentionally allow the ball to drop, as stated in this play, you didn't fumble it.




A fumble is not a dribble.

4.15 COMMENT:

It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 988862)

The play says the player FUMBLES the ball. That word it not ambiguous at all. How did you get intentionally drops from FUMBLES?

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 988862)

The play says the player FUMBLES the ball. That word it not ambiguous at all. How did you get intentionally drops from FUMBLES?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 988870)

I don't think he intended to say that. I believe he is saying that for it to be a travel, if you go by the rule, the player would have to intentionally release the ball.

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 988864)

The play that Nevada cites, which has never made its way to a casebook, says the player "fumbles AND DROPS" the ball. The argument is that the player fumbled the ball, controlled it again AND dropped it. In order to "drop" something you have to have it. They could have simply said player "fumbles the ball and then goes and retrieves." They didn't. They said "and drops." Those 2 words mean something.

Frankly, as I said earlier, there isn't any logical reason to treat a fumble different when player goes up to shoot. I believe "accidental loss of player control" is what matters. If accident, let them retrieve it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 988870)

I don't think he intended to say that. I believe he is saying that for it to be a travel, if you go by the rule, the player would have to intentionally release the ball.

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 988875)

That's what he was saying, and I don't see how his point was at all ambiguous.