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-   -   Technicals (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101279-technicals.html)

tankmjg24 Tue Apr 26, 2016 08:15am
To answer a few questions, I am not sure what rule set we were technically playing by. The rules sheet on site did not specify, so we treated it like NFHS. The gym we were playing at was a college rec gym that did not have coaching boxes marked. The coach was for sure out of the box if there was one there, and I was trying to tell him to back off so I did not have to give the technical. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but he was pushing the max and was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us. I am not going to have a coach tell me what I cannot and can do, and for sure am not going to be told how horrible I am. The assistant was not trying to be helpful. You had to have been there to have a feel for the situation.

AremRed Tue Apr 26, 2016 08:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmjg24 (Post 986751)
To answer a few questions, I am not sure what rule set we were technically playing by. The rules sheet on site did not specify, so we treated it like NFHS. The gym we were playing at was a college rec gym that did not have coaching boxes marked. The coach was for sure out of the box if there was one there, and I was trying to tell him to back off so I did not have to give the technical. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but he was pushing the max and was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us. I am not going to have a coach tell me what I cannot and can do, and for sure am not going to be told how horrible I am. The assistant was not trying to be helpful. You had to have been there to have a feel for the situation.
Sounds like you had way more reason to whack him than by enforcing the nonexistent coaching box. Personal, public, profane, or prolonged.

deecee Tue Apr 26, 2016 08:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmjg24 (Post 986751)
To answer a few questions, I am not sure what rule set we were technically playing by. The rules sheet on site did not specify, so we treated it like NFHS. The gym we were playing at was a college rec gym that did not have coaching boxes marked. The coach was for sure out of the box if there was one there, and I was trying to tell him to back off so I did not have to give the technical. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but he was pushing the max and was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us. I am not going to have a coach tell me what I cannot and can do, and for sure am not going to be told how horrible I am. The assistant was not trying to be helpful. You had to have been there to have a feel for the situation.
When the coach is teetering on a T I usually just say "I've heard enough" or "lets move on" - I have even used once or twice with coaches "another word on this and it's costing you 2 FT's" which is pretty direct. I try not to treat them like kids, even though they act like it often.

Rich Tue Apr 26, 2016 09:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmjg24 (Post 986751)
To answer a few questions, I am not sure what rule set we were technically playing by. The rules sheet on site did not specify, so we treated it like NFHS. The gym we were playing at was a college rec gym that did not have coaching boxes marked. The coach was for sure out of the box if there was one there, and I was trying to tell him to back off so I did not have to give the technical. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but he was pushing the max and was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us. I am not going to have a coach tell me what I cannot and can do, and for sure am not going to be told how horrible I am. The assistant was not trying to be helpful. You had to have been there to have a feel for the situation.
'was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us"

So, there's the problem, really.

"Knock it off." "That's enough."

Then whack him. No reason to not whack him there.

If I had a person say, "I'm a referee..." I'd stop him and ask why he isn't keeping the HC in check.

Dad Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmjg24 (Post 986751)
To answer a few questions, I am not sure what rule set we were technically playing by. The rules sheet on site did not specify, so we treated it like NFHS. The gym we were playing at was a college rec gym that did not have coaching boxes marked. The coach was for sure out of the box if there was one there, and I was trying to tell him to back off so I did not have to give the technical. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but he was pushing the max and was also screaming at me with an opposing player between us. I am not going to have a coach tell me what I cannot and can do, and for sure am not going to be told how horrible I am. The assistant was not trying to be helpful. You had to have been there to have a feel for the situation.
"You're horrible" = Wack. I'm never giving any sort of warning whatsoever for this behavior.

"screaming" at me = Most likely - Wack.

When a coach starts telling me what I can and can't do they've probably entered the realm of being a shitty coach. They don't get my attention anymore. To be fair, most coaches are pretty bad. Even at a high level I'm dumbfounded, often.

so cal lurker Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 986747)
Oh, I take it great. Rarely do I ever get a comment which gives my the green light to say whatever is on my mind.
Dammit, there went my coffee all over my keyboard . . .

so cal lurker Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986754)
I have even used once or twice with coaches "another word on this and it's costing you 2 FT's" which is pretty direct.
I'd suggest avoiding this. IMHO, you never want to back yourself in by saying what you will do, especially in the context of an ultimatum. YMMV.

Rich Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:17am
It's fine to tell a coach a technical is closeby, but "one more word" puts you into a corner you really don't want to be in IMO.

deecee Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:34pm
I have no problem with an ultimatum. They continue I whack. It's also why when 99 out of 100 times I tell a coach I'm done they stop. They know I'm not afraid to T them.

To many officials spend all night warning and never do anything about it.

so cal lurker Wed Apr 27, 2016 02:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986801)
I have no problem with an ultimatum. They continue I whack. It's also why when 99 out of 100 times I tell a coach I'm done they stop. They know I'm not afraid to T them.

To many officials spend all night warning and never do anything about it.
The last statement is true, but you don't need to frame a warning as an ultimatum to whack after a warning. IMHO, ultimatums often come across as insulting and are less likely to defuse the situation than a more measured "that's enough," "we're done coach," or even the simple stop sign. (How many of us remember grammar school teachers throwing silly ultimatums around? They often sound similar when they come from referees.) While you may get them to work for you, I think they are a very poor tool for learning referees to work on.

Da Official Wed Apr 27, 2016 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmjg24 (Post 986659)
I was working a high school aged spring tournament today and the teams were coached by dads. The tournament played halves instead of quarters, and about 5 minutes into the 2nd halve Coach A starts to show himself. His shooter goes up for a layup and misses it, and the coach starts yelling for a foul. The shooter then goes after the rebound and ends up wrapping his arm around a player for the other team that had rebounded the ball. Coach A starts yelling for a walk (the kid did, however it was because his player had his arm wrapped around the player and pulled him back). I report the foul and the coach is complaining that I missed the foul on the shooter then missed a walk. I tell him that the shot was clean and that his player ended up wrapping his arm into the player. He then tells me that I am wrong and that it is just a horrible call. I tell him that I have heard enough and to sit down. He then proceeds to tell me that I cannot make him sit down and that he is going to say what he wants to. It is at this point that I give him the first technical. He then goes and sits down as I am reporting the first technical, but then he stands back up and tells me that I am horrible. At this point I give him a second technical and eject him.

The assistant coach comes up to me after I report the second technical and ejection and proceeds to tell me that he will take over as acting coach. He then throws in that he is an official too and that I cannot tell the coach to sit down. He tells me that the coach is allowed to stand and I can only make him sit if I give him a technical. I proceed to tell him that I really do not care if he is an official or not, that I am the one officiating the game, and that I do not need his opinion. He then tells me that he was just wanting to help me out as I handled the situation wrong. I then tell him that I am not going to listen to him, and that he can join his head coach if he doesn't cut it out. He then walks away and goes back to his team.

So what are everyone's thoughts on this? Thanks.
Thanks for sharing the story....funny to me.

Adam Wed Apr 27, 2016 03:25pm
I never tell a coach to sit down. After the HC approaches me, and I provide the explanation, I might say something like, "Coach, I've explained why I called it the way I did. It's time to drop it."

The AC had no business trying to help in this situation. Sounds like a newer official who's excited he knows some rules. He was "right," but his timing was horrible here. Now both of you have added gas to the fire. Even so, his reaction was more professional in the end since he's the one who actually walked away.

WhistlesAndStripes Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 986733)
Exactly. Whack him and then tell him to sit down. :D
+1!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 986739)
And I don't think our OP really "kicked a rule," so much as he was sloppy in how he talked to the coach. As I read the scenario, he was just trying to tell the coach the conversation was over, and did it poorly. The coach used it as an excuse to act like a toddler.
Bingo here as well. It's all in the presentation. You can tell a coach that the conversation is over and he either needs to sit down or go find someone else to talk to. He can take that advice or he can continue his banter and get whacked.

BillyMac Thu Apr 28, 2016 05:52pm
Little Miss Muffet ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes (Post 986851)
You can tell a coach that the conversation is over and he either needs to sit down or go find someone else to talk to.
One can certainly tell a coach that the conversation is over. And one can certainly tell a coach to talk to someone else other than the official.

However, assuming that the coach has not earned a direct, or indirect, technical foul, and assuming that the coaching box rule is in effect (i.e., no seatbelt rule), "sit down" should never enter the conversation.

If needed, he can be "whacked" just as easily standing up as sitting down, and then he can be invited to take a seat on the bench, or if needed, to go sit on the bus with the bus driver.

BigT Fri Apr 29, 2016 04:19pm
Someone here showed me Verbal Judo. If you are having issues at least once a week with feelings of unhappiness with anyone at your games it is going to make you a much happier person/referee.

Every coach is going to fight for calls. IMO every coach falls into two categories.

He will respectfully ask you what you saw with appropriate questions and sometimes respectfully ask you to watch for some behavior.

Or he is going to treat you like poop.

Usually happens pretty early and I would avoid warning him all night.

When he makes a scene or tells you what really happens I say "coach stop".

Then chooses to escalate and get a cup a T or he understands you are not going to take it from him tonight and he coaches.

If he starts coaches you .. I like say.. Coach please coach your kids not me, if you have a respectful question or respectfully ask us to watch something we will discuss it and look for it.

We have all said things we shouldnt say to coaches. Can you learn from it. Can you forgive yourself and find a way that will make you both happier?

Yes these guys are great giving advice. You can practice all kinds of things.

At some point you have to trust yourself that you are trying to do a good job, enjoy the kids and your partners and ignore those who are bias. Get feedback from the right people and work on your game that will help you enjoy yourself and this great ad-vocation.

Last but not least... the calmer you are when you T a coach the more satisfying it is...

Take a deep breath server the T and walk away. Everyone there can see he deserved it. Stay away from his AC and the table.

I really appreciate you bringing your story here and I hope you learned a ton. PM if I can help and I highly suggest the book for not only handling coaches but every person who is a having a bad day in your life and you need to manage it.


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