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-   -   Fumbled Ball (cont) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101252-fumbled-ball-cont.html)

Camron Rust Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 986438)

However it is our job to judge intent, and simply throwing a ball against a backboard doesn't mean its a shot.

True.

However, that is the entire purpose of this case play. It does't have to be judged a shot but doing so, by way of this case, is effectively the same as it being a shot. It would be pointless to have this case play otherwise. What player is going to throw the ball off the backboard and stand still and catch it?Sometimes, you just have to apply some basic sense to the case play.

deecee Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 986438)
This I agree with.

However it is our job to judge intent, and simply throwing a ball against a backboard doesn't mean its a shot.

This is one where I don't care to "judge" intent. A player throws the ball towards the basket it's a shot attempt. Why else would they throw the ball that direction?

Dad Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 986440)
True.

However, that is the entire purpose of this case play. It does't have to be judged a shot but doing so, by way of this case, is effectively the same as it being a shot. It would be pointless to have this case play otherwise. What player is going to throw the ball off the backboard and stand still and catch it?Sometimes, you just have to apply some basic sense to the case play.

The purpose is to show that you can double dribble off an official or opponents backboard. They deemed it important to remind us the ending of 4-15.1.

@Deecee

I've seen this play a few times: A1 tries to pass from under the basket and hits the bottom edge of the backboard and then he/she catches it.

OKREF Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986441)
This is one where I don't care to "judge" intent. A player throws the ball towards the basket it's a shot attempt. Why else would they throw the ball that direction?

I do see your point and could be persuaded into that line of thought. At least with that reasoning there wouldn't be any reason to judge intent.

deecee Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 986442)
The purpose is to show that you can double dribble off an official or opponents backboard. They deemed it important to remind us the ending of 4-15.1.

@Deecee

I've seen this play a few times: A1 tries to pass from under the basket and hits the bottom edge of the backboard and then he/she catches it.

Come on, lets be reasonable and realistic. This would only happen in a varsity game on an inbounds (lower levels sure maybe). If a player is trying to throw the basket out from UNDER the backboard and it hits the bottom of the backboard then it's pretty reasonable to say it's not a shot attempt. I didn't think I need to cover 360 degrees of hypothetical situations.

Dad Mon Apr 18, 2016 02:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986444)
Come on, lets be reasonable and realistic. This would only happen in a varsity game on an inbounds (lower levels sure maybe). If a player is trying to throw the basket out from UNDER the backboard and it hits the bottom of the backboard then it's pretty reasonable to say it's not a shot attempt. I didn't think I need to cover 360 degrees of hypothetical situations.

Fair enough.

Camron Rust Mon Apr 18, 2016 04:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986441)
This is one where I don't care to "judge" intent. A player throws the ball towards the basket it's a shot attempt. Why else would they throw the ball that direction?

I have actually done it while playing. I was well defended such that I couldn't get a good shot off but I could get the ball to bounce off the board. I do so, ran around the defender to catch the "rebound" and then made the shot.

This is also basically the self alley-oop we sometimes see off the board before a dunk.

BigCat Mon Apr 18, 2016 04:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 986451)
I have actually done it while playing. I was well defended such that I couldn't get a good shot off but I could get the ball to bounce off the board. I do so, ran around the defender to catch the "rebound" and then made the shot.

This is also basically the self alley-oop we sometimes see off the board before a dunk.

I believe it is legal...without any doubt. Also, believe you threw ball against board, I suppose I believe u ran around a defender and rebounded ball. I do NOT believe u made the shot....😃

BillyMac Mon Apr 18, 2016 06:12pm

Lots Of Unanswered Questions ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 986425)
You can't just throw it off the (your own) backboard and retrieve it.

Actually, according to 9.5 SITUATION, you can. The question being discussed is regarding what the player can, or cannot do, after retrieving the ball off the backboard, assuming that the player has already ended his dribble, and the official deems this not to be a shot. Can the player legally start a new dribble (as after a try)? Also, does it matter whether, or not, the player moves his feet before retrieving the ball off the backboard?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

BillyMac Mon Apr 18, 2016 06:15pm

Good Post ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 986442)
A1 tries to pass from under the basket and hits the bottom edge of the backboard and then he/she catches it.

Nice scenario. Assuming he had already ended his dribble, can he legally start a new dribble?

BillyMac Mon Apr 18, 2016 06:19pm

Try Again ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 986425)
If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You can't just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 986428)
I agree with this.

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

BillyMac Mon Apr 18, 2016 06:24pm

Wishful Thinking ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 986436)
Ball toward basket = shot attempt.

This would certainly be nice, but it's not the present rule.

deecee Mon Apr 18, 2016 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 986461)
This would certainly be nice, but it's not the present rule.

The present rule leaves it open to be OO and a poor adjudicator of the game.

OKREF Mon Apr 18, 2016 07:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 986459)
How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

BigCat Mon Apr 18, 2016 07:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 986464)
Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

Read it again when u get a chance and 9.5. The rule 4 play doesn't say u can only do it if it is a shot.


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