North Carolina St. @ Virginia (Video) 3 Plays to discuss

[Pantherdreams]

1. I needed the second slow motion to be sure it was a travel, so in real time I'm not calling it.

2. Lots of contact to choose from way before any attempt to start shooting the ball.

3. If he doesn't get that one the crew (including him look real bad at the time, when their commish sees it, and one highlight reals all night).

[Zoochy]

Video #2
Is continuous motion ruled different at NCAAM and NCAAW than NFHS?
As I read Rule 4-11 and fundamental #17, I error on the side of 'In the Act of Shooting'.
The reason I believe there is a difference is because the tern 'Upward Motion' is used a few times in the posts.
I cannot find Upward Motion in NFHS

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Video #2
Is continuous motion ruled different at NCAAM and NCAAW than NFHS?
As I read Rule 4-11 and fundamental #17, I error on the side of 'In the Act of Shooting'.
The reason I believe there is a difference is because the tern 'Upward Motion' is used a few times in the posts.
I cannot find Upward Motion in NFHS

It is an NCAAM interpretation. It has nothing to do with the NFHS Rules.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Video #2
Is continuous motion ruled different at NCAAM and NCAAW than NFHS?
As I read Rule 4-11 and fundamental #17, I error on the side of 'In the Act of Shooting'.
The reason I believe there is a difference is because the tern 'Upward Motion' is used a few times in the posts.
I cannot find Upward Motion in NFHS

It has to do with the ball and it's motion in regards to calling a player in the act of shooting or not for the purposes of FT's. The NCAAM rules committee is doing whatever they can to make the act of shooting a very complicated topic. Although they did improve it greatly this year over the mess they created last season.

Play 1: not a travel at any level

Play 2: shooting foul

Play 3: Travel but I wouldn't even be looking there. Not a crew saver.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Play 1: not a travel at any level

Play 2: shooting foul

Play 3: Travel but I wouldn't even be looking there. Not a crew saver.

Huh? How is #2 a shooting foul and why would any official let such an egregious travel go? Also it was a last second shot, what else is there to look at?

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Play 1: not a travel at any level

Play 2: shooting foul

Play 3: Travel but I wouldn't even be looking there. Not a crew saver.

1. Is travel but happens so fast not called by many/most officials. As someone else said, it doesn't do the game any good if only one official calls travel.

2. Player was dribbling ball on first foul and one I think he called. Not shooting.

3. If somebody doesn't call it they look like clowns....player made a 4th or 5th grade move. No call makes officials look like 4th or 5th grade officials...

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Huh? How is #2 a shooting foul and why would any official let such an egregious travel go? Also it was a last second shot, what else is there to look at?

It's close but I believe the foul in #2 happens during upward motion. Thus I would count the shot.

What else is there to look at? I dunno, maybe his area? Outside the 3pt line right in front of Trail is not somewhere I would be looking as Lead.

[Camron Rust]

#1, not that close but not that blatant either. These are pretty easy to see but I don't call them because others don't. I'm not going to be the only one. They should just change the rule to match what is called. Of course, if they do that, officials will start letting them take 4-5 steps before calling it.

#2, the defender grabbed the offensive player's arm as the last dribble was coming back up to the hand...hard to be in the shooting motion before the player is holding the ball.

#3, egregious and obvious....should have been called by anyone who saw it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

It's close but I believe the foul in #2 happens during upward motion. Thus I would count the shot.

He gets fouls before he even gathered his dribble.

Originally Posted by AremRed

What else is there to look at? I dunno, maybe his area? Outside the 3pt line right in front of Trail is not somewhere I would be looking as Lead.

If you are trying to get better, that thinking is not going to help. That travel would have been a ding against the entire crew if it was not called.

On a last second shot what is going on in his area that is more important that the shooter? Officials I work with talk about last second shots and making sure everyone has an opinion. Hard to have an opinion if your staring at the paint for a rebound that is never going to happen.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

It's close but I believe the foul in #2 happens during upward motion. Thus I would count the shot.

What else is there to look at? I dunno, maybe his area? Outside the 3pt line right in front of Trail is not somewhere I would be looking as Lead.

That's a last second shot. If as the lead you aren't going to help with the feet on a last second shot then what good are you to the crew? The only exception would be if you had "real" action in your PCA.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My only point is that HS officials miss a lot and I mean a lot of travels either that are not properly called or called that did not actually take place. HS officials IMO error on the side of "It looks funny, let me blow my whistle." I think mostly higher level officials tend to not call things they are not sure about. I think this particular play is not called hardly at all, because I have called these in games and I am the only one calling them. I do not think officials at all levels identify travels very well. And I know in this case live I would have probably also passed as I would have had trouble trying to figure out when he caught the ball with the right foot on the floor and would have passed.

I think HS officials love to talk about what is ignored while not being perfect themselves on these calls. That of course is not what I am saying about you, just an observation of when I watch and talk to high school only officials.

Peace

Christ, a guy works a few college games and he thinks all us HS-only people are crap. Stop lumping all of us under some big, inferior umbrella. Some of us have never had a desire to drive 4+ hours to make $150 - $175 working a D3 game -- that doesn't make us bad officials who don't know how to call traveling.

Onto another subject:

As far as play 3 is concerned, we're under 2 seconds. Damned right I'm looking there. As soon as it's obvious that he's going to be a jump shooter, we need to know where the feet are and, more importantly, we simply can't miss a foul on the jump shooter cause "I'm watching my area." Let's face it -- at the D1 level, the monitor will get the feet -- it's the foul on the jump shooter the crew really can't miss.

(There's an analogous concept in baseball -- a ball that threatens a foul pole -- ALL umpires are going to look at it. What's more important, watching a meaningless touch of a base or that ball that's may or may have not hooked the pole -- everyone needs to have an opinion.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Christ, a guy works a few college games and he thinks all us HS-only people are crap. Stop lumping all of us under some big, inferior umbrella. Some of us have never had a desire to drive 4+ hours to make $150 - $175 working a D3 game -- that doesn't make us bad officials who don't know how to call traveling.

I have worked college for over 10 years. I also do not have to travel 4 hours to most college games. I do not know that I have ever traveled for a college basketball game that was 4 hours away. Usually about a hour at most and it is because there is traffic to attend the game. This Saturday I will work a game about 20 minutes from my house and if I lived in the same place I did a couple of years ago, I would have 10 minutes at most to get to this particular site. And if I worked D3 ball game alone, there are several within 30 minutes from where I live. But since you brought it up.......

Also, what I am usually talking about is that those that mostly work high school love to tell everyone what is the attitudes of those that work college. And usually the attitude is that certain things are ignored on purpose that are never ignored at the high school level like traveling. College officials usually subject themselves to more camps and more training where as many "high school guys" do the absolute bare minimum to get better if they are not required to attend something. I happen to live in a state that requires camps as a norm for a period of time, but many official only care about what is going to get them a game, not what they need to do to get better.

Originally Posted by Rich

Onto another subject:

As far as play 3 is concerned, we're under 2 seconds. Damned right I'm looking there. As soon as it's obvious that he's going to be a jump shooter, we need to know where the feet are and, more importantly, we simply can't miss a foul on the jump shooter cause "I'm watching my area." Let's face it -- at the D1 level, the monitor will get the feet -- it's the foul on the jump shooter the crew really can't miss.

Since you mentioned it, usually it is high school officials that use these old and antiquated ideas about things like who calls something or who should make a call. Because if you go to camps where mostly the officials are responsible for officials of different levels, those individuals are not stuck into the, "That is not my area" thinking. That is why IMO just in these plays we have had people talking about where and who called something other than why they called it or got it right.

Originally Posted by Rich

(There's an analogous concept in baseball -- a ball that threatens a foul pole -- ALL umpires are going to look at it. What's more important, watching a meaningless touch of a base or that ball that's may or may have not hooked the pole -- everyone needs to have an opinion.)

Christ man, no one cares about a sport that is outside and has no time associated with that. I do not want to go leave my house not knowing if I am going to play a game. This is an indoor sport we are talking about, not an outdoor one. No one cares about that sport anyway.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have worked college for over 10 years. I also do not have to travel 4 hours to most college games. I do not know that I have ever traveled for a college basketball game that was 4 hours away. Usually about a hour at most and it is because there is traffic to attend the game. This Saturday I will work a game about 20 minutes from my house and if I lived in the same place I did a couple of years ago, I would have 10 minutes at most to get to this particular site. And if I worked D3 ball game alone, there are several within 30 minutes from where I live. But since you brought it up.......

Also, what I am usually talking about is that those that mostly work high school love to tell everyone what is the attitudes of those that work college. And usually the attitude is that certain things are ignored on purpose that are never ignored at the high school level like traveling. College officials usually subject themselves to more camps and more training where as many "high school guys" do the absolute bare minimum to get better if they are not required to attend something. I happen to live in a state that requires camps as a norm for a period of time, but many official only care about what is going to get them a game, not what they need to do to get better.



Since you mentioned it, usually it is high school officials that use these old and antiquated ideas about things like who calls something or who should make a call. Because if you go to camps where mostly the officials are responsible for officials of different levels, those individuals are not stuck into the, "That is not my area" thinking. That is why IMO just in these plays we have had people talking about where and who called something other than why they called it or got it right.



Christ man, no one cares about a sport that is outside and has no time associated with that. I do not want to go leave my house not knowing if I am going to play a game. This is an indoor sport we are talking about, not an outdoor one. No one cares about that sport anyway.

Peace

I'm just saying that a lot of us don't fit under that umbrella. Your sloppy use of "HS guys" as a blanket term doesn't fit for all of us.

2 years ago I worked HS state -- that summer I went to 2 weekend camps as an attendee and was a clinician at a few others -- none of these were in an effort to "get hired" to work college games. Last summer I did the same thing.

I have no real need to do this after so many years of officiating -- I get all the games I want -- but when I think I can't learn anything new, it's time to quit. And I learned from some of the best officials in the country (including a B1G / NCAA tournament official) some concepts of working 3-person that I've taken back to my local association.

Do people exist like the ones you describe? Yes. Some are on this forum. So what?

As far as baseball goes, it's my least favorite of my 3 sports these days. But once March rolls around, I've had enough basketball for a while. If I get rid of baseball (and I might in a few years), what will take its place is "nothing."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm just saying that a lot of us don't fit under that umbrella. Your sloppy use of "HS guys" as a blanket term doesn't fit for all of us.

Then get mad at those as well that make the claim that what is ignored on purpose at the other levels. Again there are people that make many statements as if HS is pure and what happens at high school would never happen at the college or God Forbid the NBA level. I know guys that will not call the most simple stuff when it is front of them because they either do not know it happen or they are indifferent to making that call.

Originally Posted by Rich

2 years ago I worked HS state -- that summer I went to 2 weekend camps as an attendee and was a clinician at a few others -- none of these were in an effort to "get hired" to work college games. Last summer I did the same thing.

OK, I have worked high school for 20 years and often deal with high school officials as a clinician. Also many of the officials I work with in high school have college experience as well. I work for a supervisor that assigns high school (some of the most assignments in the state now) and college. Many of his college guys other than the D1 guys works both for him.

Originally Posted by Rich

I have no real need to do this after so many years of officiating -- I get all the games I want -- but when I think I can't learn anything new, it's time to quit. And I learned from some of the best officials in the country (including a B1G / NCAA tournament official) some concepts of working 3-person that I've taken back to my local association.

In my 20 years of officiating 3 sports, I have learned that mostly what is done comes from all levels and concepts of officiating comes from all levels. I spoke with an NBA officials that came to our association to speak this past fall, almost all their mechanics are the same things we do. Yes, some differences in what you actually cover, but how you call the game or when you call the game outside of your area is basically the same. What is a crew saving call is seen the same. The difference is that those at the NBA and college levels they get a lot of tape to evaluate those things. I rarely get a good high school tape of any of my high school games. I try and many are online, but we rarely get to review tape of our games. It is getting much better than it used to be, but still far behind the other levels for sure.

Originally Posted by Rich

Do people exist like the ones you describe? Yes. Some are on this forum. So what?

Even in the OP I qualified that one of the plays was a college rule being applied. That did not stop people from making comments that seem odd. But I digress.

Originally Posted by Rich

As far as baseball goes, it's my least favorite of my 3 sports these days. But once March rolls around, I've had enough basketball for a while. If I get rid of baseball (and I might in a few years), what will take its place is "nothing."

My comment about baseball was strictly a joke in the context of this thread and your comments. I personally do not care what someone does in their spare time. I worked baseball for 15 years and enjoyed it for the most part. But what is funny is that baseball umpires from other levels love to ridicule those that do not follow all the concepts that comes from the Majors when what might apply in HS is not appropriate to be used in the first place. I was always having conversations with guys in baseball about why someone did not do something because some big fat guy in the Majors does something with more umpires and better players.

I have left baseball and have not missed it one bit. It was also my least favorite to officiate and the only reason I was even thinking about coming back is to work another State Final and that was not enough of a reason for me. I would rather work summer basketball.

Peace