Throw-In Situation

[crosscountry55]

AP throw-in, backcourt endline.

A1 has the ball at disposal for the throw-in. Nearby, B1 is defending A2 who is trying to get in position to receive the throw-in pass from A1. Eventually, A2 fakes out her defender and gets close enough that A1 reaches out over the plane with the ball and starts to hand it to A2. However, A2 never grabs or possesses the ball. She comes close, but ultimately the ball rolled partially up her fingertips at which point B1 arrives and is able to get a firm grip on the ball while A1 is still holding it out over the plane.

Q1: Does the ball become dead at any point here, and if so, when/why?

Q2: Assuming there's a whistle and ruling of some sort, what happens next?

Bonus points for defense of answer with rule citation.

[SNIPERBBB]

I don't think there's any violation for the mere touching by A2 if the ball is past the plane. The touching by B1results in a held ball

6.4.5 SITUATION B:

During an alternating-possession throw-in, thrower A1 holds the ball through the end-line plane and B1 grabs it, resulting in a held ball.

RULING: Since the throw-in had not ended and no violation occurred, it is still A's ball for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-42-5)

ART. 5

[bas2456]

A1: Yes, as soon as A2 touches it. The inbounder must release the ball on a pass directly on to the court (7-6-2).

A2: Throw in for Team B, and the arrow switches over to B as well, as the AP throw in ended when Team A violated.

[Nevadaref]

If A1 never lets go of the ball, then no throw-in pass or hand-off has occurred. Therefore, there is no violation.
(BktBallRef and I debated this topic quite extensively several years ago on this forum.)
If B1 is able to hang onto the ball along with A1, then a heldball should be called.

[bas2456]

What's the correct answer???

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bas2456

What's the correct answer???

I don't know. That's why I asked.

Nevada's explanation makes more sense, i.e. what's to say A1 couldn't have theoretically pulled the ball back and tried again to make a legal throw-in pass before B1 came in and caused the held ball?

I (U, 2p crew) was actually thinking held ball at the time, and to be perfectly honest it was because that was the rule I knew for sure how to adjudicate. In retrospect, I was accidentally correct. However, R and I got together because it was an unusual whistle, R listened to my description of the play, and opted for throw-in violation. I'm not 100% sure he understood what I was trying to explain, and then it got to that point where it was better to make a decision and move on rather than have a subtle argument on the court. So we went with the TI violation and Team A lost the arrow.

No big deal in the grand scheme. I learned something. Figured it would be a good discussion for the forum.

[DrPete]

Originally Posted by bas2456

What's the correct answer???

SnipperBBB already answered correctly, with a quote right out of the case book.

Rule: 6.4.5


6.4.5 SITUATION B:

During an alternating-possession throw-in, thrower A1 holds the ball through the end-line plane and B1 grabs it, resulting in a held ball.

RULING: Since the throw-in had not ended and no violation occurred, it is still A's ball for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-42-5)

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by DrPete

SnipperBBB already answered correctly, with a quote right out of the case book.



Rule: 6.4.5





6.4.5 SITUATION B:



During an alternating-possession throw-in, thrower A1 holds the ball through the end-line plane and B1 grabs it, resulting in a held ball.



RULING: Since the throw-in had not ended and no violation occurred, it is still A's ball for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-42-5)

That case play doesn't address the touch by A2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

AP throw-in, backcourt endline.

A1 has the ball at disposal for the throw-in. Nearby, B1 is defending A2 who is trying to get in position to receive the throw-in pass from A1. Eventually, A2 fakes out her defender and gets close enough that A1 reaches out over the plane with the ball and starts to hand it to A2. However, A2 never grabs or possesses the ball. She comes close, but ultimately the ball rolled partially up her fingertips at which point B1 arrives and is able to get a firm grip on the ball while A1 is still holding it out over the plane.

Q1: Does the ball become dead at any point here, and if so, when/why?

Q2: Assuming there's a whistle and ruling of some sort, what happens next?

Bonus points for defense of answer with rule citation.

I think the second that A2 touches the ball while still in the hands of the A1, we have a throw in violation. The ball must be passed in on a throw in.

4.42.4.....The throw in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.

9.2.2.......The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

Since this is a throw in violation on the offense, team B will get the ball and the arrow will be switched to team B.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I think the second that A2 touches the ball while still in the hands of the A1, we have a throw in violation. The ball must be passed in on a throw in.

4.42.4.....The throw in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.

9.2.2.......The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

Since this is a throw in violation on the offense, team B will get the ball and the arrow will be switched to team B.

What's the rule violated here?

A1 hasn't released the pass, so the pass isn't illegal.
A1 hasn't handed it off, so that's not the violation.

The ball hasn't gained IB status without a pass, so that's not the violation.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Adam

What's the rule violated here?

A1 hasn't released the pass, so the pass isn't illegal.
A1 hasn't handed it off, so that's not the violation.

The ball hasn't gained IB status without a pass, so that's not the violation.

I would view this as a handoff. The second it left A1's hands and rolled up the fingertips of A2 the ball has been handed off.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I would view this as a handoff. The second it left A1's hands and rolled up the fingertips of A2 the ball has been handed off.

In the OP the ball never left A1's control

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

What's the rule violated here?

A1 hasn't released the pass, so the pass isn't illegal.
A1 hasn't handed it off, so that's not the violation.

The ball hasn't gained IB status without a pass, so that's not the violation.

The argument could be made----A ball is located where a player is in contact with it. Ball is OOB when A1 has it. When inbounds player touches it it is also inbounds. The touch by the inbounds player changes the situation. Since A1 is out of bounds still. violation.

We know that isn't the rule. if it was it would be a violation on A1 when B grabbed the ball. Case play says it is a held ball.

I think you are right that even though an inbounds player touched the ball while it was over the plane, the status of it never changes. If A1 holds onto the ball it is like any other throw in that isn't touched by an inbounds player.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The argument could be made----A ball is located where a player is in contact with it. Ball is OOB when A1 has it. When inbounds player touches it it is also inbounds. The touch by the inbounds player changes the situation. Since A1 is out of bounds still. violation.

We know that isn't the rule. if it was it would be a violation on A1 when B grabbed the ball. Case play says it is a held ball.

I think you are right that even though an inbounds player touched the ball while it was over the plane, the status of it never changes. If A1 holds onto the ball it is like any other throw in that isn't touched by an inbounds player.

My thought is that if you have to stretch a rule so thin in order to make a call, it's probably best not to make the call.