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-   -   Running out of bounds and returning (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100793-running-out-bounds-returning.html)

frezer11 Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OfficialBFish (Post 979048)
Does it make any difference that he was the inbounder and never fully seemed to step in bounds after the throw in?

No, his motion off the screen took him further OOB, it was used to his advantage.

Have had a similar discussion before with others, if A2 runs OOB and then comes back in, and AFTER he is back in bounds and established, A1 throws the pass is that a violation? Rule says, " A player who has stepped out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation." If the ball is still in A1's hand, then A1 is the first to touch the ball by virtue of the fact that it's still in his hand. So is this a legal play? By the letter of the rule, I think yes, but by the spirit of the rule, I'd say no.

jpgc99 Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979055)
No, his motion off the screen took him further OOB, it was used to his advantage.

Have had a similar discussion before with others, if A2 runs OOB and then comes back in, and AFTER he is back in bounds and established, A1 throws the pass is that a violation? Rule says, " A player who has stepped out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation." If the ball is still in A1's hand, then A1 is the first to touch the ball by virtue of the fact that it's still in his hand. So is this a legal play? By the letter of the rule, I think yes, but by the spirit of the rule, I'd say no.

The wording of this question isn't very clear to me, but it is a violation if the player that steps out of bounds is the next player (in sequential order) to touch the ball.

In other words, if A1 is holding the ball in bounds and A2 steps out of bounds on his own and returns to the court, someone else must touch the ball before A2. So A1 can pass to A3 and then to A2, but if the pass goes from A1 to A2 it is a violation.

JetMetFan Tue Feb 02, 2016 01:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OfficialBFish (Post 979048)
Does it make any difference that he was the inbounder and never fully seemed to step in bounds after the throw in?

Well, if that was the case the player could have received a technical for purposely delaying his return to the playing court after being legally out
of bounds. Given the two choices on the menu, I think the player and his coach would opt for the violation.

frezer11 Tue Feb 02, 2016 01:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpgc99 (Post 979056)
The wording of this question isn't very clear to me, but it is a violation if the player that steps out of bounds is the next player (in sequential order) to touch the ball.

In other words, if A1 is holding the ball in bounds and A2 steps out of bounds on his own and returns to the court, someone else must touch the ball before A2. So A1 can pass to A3 and then to A2, but if the pass goes from A1 to A2 it is a violation.

And I agree with your interpretation, but I think the wording of the rule creates some doubt in that if A2 returns to the court before A1 releases the pass, then technically A1 is the first to touch the ball after A2's return

Raymond Tue Feb 02, 2016 08:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979060)
And I agree with your interpretation, but I think the wording of the rule creates some doubt in that if A2 returns to the court before A1 releases the pass, then technically A1 is the first to touch the ball after A2's return

It doesn't create doubt among college officials. They understand what the rule is telling them to do.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 02, 2016 08:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979060)
And I agree with your interpretation, but I think the wording of the rule creates some doubt in that if A2 returns to the court before A1 releases the pass, then technically A1 is the first to touch the ball after A2's return

No, A1 is the "zeroth" to touch the ball. A2 is the first.

The rule is clear enough -- and it's a call that happens in my NCAAW games a couple of times a year.

I did notice that L did not use the new NCAAM "delayed violation" mechanic on this.

youngump Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 979071)
No, A1 is the "zeroth" to touch the ball. A2 is the first.

The rule is clear enough -- and it's a call that happens in my NCAAW games a couple of times a year.

The rule is not clear and no one would come up with the interpretation that the NCAA uses unless someone told them it was that. That said the interpretation is very clear and first to touch means next. They should change the rule.

Raymond Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 979075)
The rule is not clear and no one would come up with the interpretation that the NCAA uses unless someone told them it was that. That said the interpretation is very clear and first to touch means next. They should change the rule.

Rule has always been clear to me. I don't even know if I've ever read the case play.

deecee Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:46am

This rule is completely clear. I have yet to come across an NCAA official or assignor that has talked more than 30 seconds on this topic and anyone being confused.

frezer11 Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 979075)
The rule is not clear and no one would come up with the interpretation that the NCAA uses unless someone told them it was that. That said the interpretation is very clear and first to touch means next. They should change the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 979076)
Rule has always been clear to me. I don't even know if I've ever read the case play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979088)
This rule is completely clear. I have yet to come across an NCAA official or assignor that has talked more than 30 seconds on this topic and anyone being confused.

But would you at least concede that the meaning of the rule is the next to touch the ball, therefore would be better written if it simply used the word "Next" instead of "First?" Does this minor wording issue require the rule to be changed? No, but if there is a better way to do things, then why not?

bob jenkins Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979099)
But would you at least concede that the meaning of the rule is the next to touch the ball, therefore would be better written if it simply used the word "Next" instead of "First?" Does this minor wording issue require the rule to be changed? No, but if there is a better way to do things, then why not?

Then someone will claim that if A1 is dribbling and continues to dribble after A2 returns, that A1 is the "next" to touch the ball.

deecee Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979099)
But would you at least concede that the meaning of the rule is the next to touch the ball, therefore would be better written if it simply used the word "Next" instead of "First?" Does this minor wording issue require the rule to be changed? No, but if there is a better way to do things, then why not?

You are over complicating a very simple rule that hasn't confused any college official that I have come across. First - Next, all semantics that, as Bob pointed out doesn't change what the intent is. If a player has possession of the ball inbounds and a teammate runs OOB to go around a screen that TEAMMATE cannot be the recipient of a pass by the initial player with the ball. That's it. nothing more. nothing less.

frezer11 Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979104)
You are over complicating a very simple rule that hasn't confused any college official that I have come across. First - Next, all semantics that, as Bob pointed out doesn't change what the intent is. If a player has possession of the ball inbounds and a teammate runs OOB to go around a screen that TEAMMATE cannot be the recipient of a pass by the initial player with the ball. That's it. nothing more. nothing less.

You're exactly right, so why not word it that way?

Raymond Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 979113)
You're exactly right, so why not word it that way?

I hope you are asking that rhetorically.

Camron Rust Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:46pm

Yes, this rule is badly worded. It should say something else. But what else? Either of the suggested wordings create bad interpretation opportunities.

Perhaps it should say "next to receive a pass".


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