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-   -   The Name Game (Shirley Ellis, 1964) ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100749-name-game-shirley-ellis-1964-a.html)

Camron Rust Tue Jan 26, 2016 02:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978100)
10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.
Nothing in those definitions says they have to be present.

Dad Tue Jan 26, 2016 02:34am
Your partner was probably grumpy. I'd be grumpy having to do 2-man.

I have my first 2-man game of the year tomorrow and I have no idea what to do!!!:D

Nevadaref Tue Jan 26, 2016 03:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 978123)
Your partner was probably grumpy. I'd be grumpy having to do 2-man.

I have my first 2-man game of the year tomorrow and I have no idea what to do!!!:D
Run!

BillyMac Tue Jan 26, 2016 07:19am
Injured Kid Not In Uniform On The Bench ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 978121)
Nothing in those definitions says they have to be present.
Agree, even though it's contrary to the stupid IAABO refresher exam interpretation.

But how about the injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)? Do the NFHS rules address that?

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player

So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)

Eastshire Tue Jan 26, 2016 08:06am
The rules say you have to list each team member. It doesn't say you can only list team members. So it's a lower limit, not an exact requirement.

There is no rule which prevents bench personnel from being listed in the scorebook.

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform..

Edit: And furthermore, the team isn't responsible for what goes in the scorebook anyways. It's only responsible for the list provided to the scorer. Although the argument there is the same: at least all the team members, no upper limit.

Raymond Tue Jan 26, 2016 08:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978108)
Me too (I got the question wrong). Worst refresher exam question in IAABO history.

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

I know that IAABO isn't the official interpreter of NFHS rules, but is the interpretation based on existing NFHS rules, independent of IAABO, maybe not in the case above, but maybe with a injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)?

3-2-1: At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team
shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member
and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul
(see 10-1-1 Penalty).

So, who's a team member?

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.
Maybe we should not reference IAABO tests in this forum. ;)

Raymond Tue Jan 26, 2016 08:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978128)
...

So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)
Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Jan 26, 2016 09:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 978105)
Billy, we went through this a few years ago when IAABO issued a ruling that such names could not be in the book. If I recall correctly, it stated that if the team member was not present at the start of the game, then his name could not be placed in the book at that time and would have to be added later upon his arrival creating a technical foul.

I didn't agree with it then and don't now.

I know of no IAABO interpretation that states that if a team member in not present that team member's name cannot be listed in the score book. There is no NFHS or NCAA interpretation that prevents at team from having more names in the book than it has dressed at the start of the game.

MTD, Sr.

Nevadaref Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 978143)
I know of no IAABO interpretation that states that if a team member in not present that team member's name cannot be listed in the score book. There is no NFHS or NCAA interpretation that prevents at team from having more names in the book than it has dressed at the start of the game.

MTD, Sr.
Seriously? Did you read post #14 in this thread by BillyMac?

Camron Rust Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978128)
Agree, even though it's contrary to the stupid IAABO refresher exam interpretation.

But how about the injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)? Do the NFHS rules address that?

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player
How do you know they are not in uniform if you can't see them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978128)
So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)
The coach can list anyone he/she likes, even Snoopy. We don't determine eligibility.

Like someone else said, it doesn't preclude listing someone that isn't present. It doesn't even require all those that are present and in uniform to be listed (only if they play).

jTheUmp Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:19pm
Like others have said, there's a lot of reasons why someone might be listed in the scorebook who isn't warming up on the court. Off the top of my head:

Forgot their uniform, and they're waiting for Mom/Dad/assistant coach #14 to drop it off.
Still in the locker room attending to personal business, getting extra stretching, or treatment of an injury.
Performing in a band concert (This has happened to me in my high school days)
Stuck in traffic 5 miles from the game site.
Suspended by the coach for the first half of the game
Broken shoelace

Shall I go on?

RE: assistant coach listed in the scorebook: I don't know, nor do I care, about the names of assistant coaches (or players, for that matter)... If #43 is listed in the scorebook and it turns out #43 is an adult assistant coach, and #43 actually plays in the game... well, then the opposing team gets to file an incident report with the state. Same thing would happen if #43 was an actual team member who had gone over the daily/yearly participation limits set by the state.

Adam Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978100)
10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.
I'll reword my question.

Where does it limit, in any way, the names that may be in the book?

Adam Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 978135)
Maybe we should not reference IAABO tests in this forum. ;)
Especially 11 year old tests.

WhistlesAndStripes Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 978129)
The rules say you have to list each team member. It doesn't say you can only list team members. So it's a lower limit, not an exact requirement.

There is no rule which prevents bench personnel from being listed in the scorebook.

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform..

Edit: And furthermore, the team isn't responsible for what goes in the scorebook anyways. It's only responsible for the list provided to the scorer. Although the argument there is the same: at least all the team members, no upper limit.
That is the key. If some overly officious official wants to erase names from the book, then so be it. But if that player is later sent to the table to report in to the game, there is no penalty AS LONG AS THAT PLAYER'S NAME AND THE CORRECT NUMBER WAS PROPERLY PROVIDED TO THE SCORER PRIOR TO THE 10 MINUTE MARK.

Adam Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 978136)
Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.
This forum is actually in 100% agreement on this. That should tell you something. :)

I think you're trying to hard to justify your partner's decisions here. That's admirable, but futile.


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