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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 08:20am
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End of Quarter

A1 dunks at the end of the 3rd quarter as the horn sounds. A1 then proceeds to do a chin up and gets a T.

Start the 4th with 2 FT and B ball at division line and AP stays in same direction it is already pointing.

Is A1 a player or bench personnel?
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 08:28am
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He is a player that is legally on the court and the action did not take place during intermission. The action took place during play.

I think to make him bench personnel is a stretch and not likely the intent of the rule (which matters).

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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 08:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
A1 dunks at the end of the 3rd quarter as the horn sounds. A1 then proceeds to do a chin up and gets a T.

Start the 4th with 2 FT and B ball at division line and AP stays in same direction it is already pointing.

Is A1 a player or bench personnel?
If you are starting the 4th quarter with the FTs for the T, then you judged / ruled the T to happen during the intermission.

If you judged / ruled the T to happen during the 3rd quarter, then you should shoot the FTs for the T as part of the 3rd quarter and start the 4th quarter with the arrow.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 09:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
If you are starting the 4th quarter with the FTs for the T, then you judged / ruled the T to happen during the intermission.
Then the coach loses his box?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
If you judged / ruled the T to happen during the 3rd quarter, then you should shoot the FTs for the T as part of the 3rd quarter and start the 4th quarter with the arrow.
Then team B loses the 2nd part of the penalty for getting a T


I agree with all being said though.

Last edited by Valley Man; Mon Jan 04, 2016 at 09:05am.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 09:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
Then the coach loses his box?
Is a "player" a "team member" during intermission? Is Intermission between quarters or only at halftime? What happens when a "team member" commits a T during intermission?


Quote:
Then team B loses the 2nd part of the penalty for getting a T
The rule is clear that no part of a penalty carries over between quarters.


Quote:
I agree with all being said though.
I'm just trying to get you to reason through to the right answer. When does a quarter end?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 09:20am
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I appreciate it. I believe the play is over and the quarter has ended. He just happened to be on the rim when it ended! His actions happened after the quarter has expired.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 09:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
I appreciate it. I believe the play is over and the quarter has ended. He just happened to be on the rim when it ended! His actions happened after the quarter has expired.
He was an airborne shooter?
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
He was an airborne shooter?
Yes indeed, but airborne shooter is only relevant to contact. So you would penalize it in the end of the 3rd?

Last edited by Valley Man; Mon Jan 04, 2016 at 10:40am.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 11:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Is a "player" a "team member" during intermission? Is Intermission between quarters or only at halftime? What happens when a "team member" commits a T during intermission?
A "player" is always a "team member" during the game. I think the differentiation you are looking for is, is he a "player", or is he "bench personnel"?
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
He was an airborne shooter?
This was my thought, too.
It is the only aspect of this play which makes it worth discussing.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 12:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes View Post
A "player" is always a "team member" during the game. I think the differentiation you are looking for is, is he a "player", or is he "bench personnel"?
Correct. I apologize.

I also agree that the whole "airborne shooter" issue is the determining factor.

After all, if he committed a personal foul, or was fouled while in the air but after the horn had sounded, we'd treat that as being part of the third quarter.

I don't see this as any different.

now, if the shot went in, the horn sounded and THEN someone jumped up in celebration and grabbed the rim, it would be part of the fourth quarter.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 12:13pm
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I think this is just a hole in the rule. There does not appear to be a specific interpretation that covers this, so it is up to each officials to decide what to do at this point.

I would not call a T where I would consider the player bench personnel as that might cause other issues if that is the result. Just keep it simple and give a T to the player as if it took place during the playing time. Now if they change the rule or interpretation to make it clear, then I will likely do that, but it better be obvious as well.

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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 12:16pm
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I agree with Bob and J Rut,

It seems to me that, according to 6-7-6 and Exception a. that the actions of the shooter should be considered part of the 3rd Quarter:

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART.6 . . . Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the tap or try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap fora field goal is in flight.

Thus, because the shooter was airborne when the quarter signal sounded, all actions that are part of the quarter include his illegal "chin-up" and the penalty for that action would be considered as part of the 3rd quarter. So, the shots for that Technical foul would be administered before the intermission between the 3rd and 4th quarters is started, and the 4th quarter will be started with the AP arrow.
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Last edited by Rob1968; Mon Jan 04, 2016 at 12:19pm.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 03:40pm
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I agree with Rob.
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Old Mon Jan 04, 2016, 04:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
I agree with Bob and J Rut,

It seems to me that, according to 6-7-6 and Exception a. that the actions of the shooter should be considered part of the 3rd Quarter:

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART.6 . . . Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the tap or try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap fora field goal is in flight.

Thus, because the shooter was airborne when the quarter signal sounded, all actions that are part of the quarter include his illegal "chin-up" and the penalty for that action would be considered as part of the 3rd quarter. So, the shots for that Technical foul would be administered before the intermission between the 3rd and 4th quarters is started, and the 4th quarter will be started with the AP arrow.
Disclaimer: I would probably treat this as part of the 3rd quarter as well.

But, for the sake of argument, the slam dunk try probably ended about 0.1 seconds after the try was released (i.e. when the ball cleared the net). So unless the dunk took place with 0.1 or less on the clock, time probably expired after the try was over (even of the shooter was still hanging up there). That negates the Article 6 exception for the airborne shooter, no? Time expired after, not while the try or tap for field goal was in flight.
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