Which Side of the Lane Line?
 

Free throw is good to tie the game with five seconds to go. Time out request granted.
I, as the new trail, grab the ball and stand off the far lane line in OOB area to await the ensuing throw-in administration. No particular reason I went there instead of the near side. I just went to that side.
Teams come out and the thrower-inner says to me, "My coach drew up a play that has me doing a throw-in from the other side over there. Can we do this over there instead?"
What do I say?
A) No, I've been standing here the entire timeout. You're doing this throw-in from here.
...or...
B) It really doesn't matter, you can run the endline anyway. So here's where it's gonna be starting from right here.
...or...
C) Sure, it doesn't matter to me. Let's go over to the other side right now.
...or...
D) Other???
Anything by rule or by officials manual citation I should know?

I always allow them to start where they wish. In 2-man I would have no problem bouncing the ball across the paint. In 3-man, I will move to the side from which they wish to start the play.

No.

the general consensus is to move.

Interesting scenario. While attending a college officials camp recently, this event came up. The observer discussed with the officials, "what are you officials talking about during the dead ball?" The point was raised about where do you want the ball inbounding? The observer shared he preferred to take the ball out table side; to allow the other official across the court the ability to have both benches in their line of site, in case a coach wants to call a time out. He commented the official inbounding the ball is focused on the thrower and not the benches. Based on your OP: answer (D)

NFHS Rule 2.3 may come into play on this.

I am putting ball in table side. If he wants to move to the other side, he can once I give him the ball.

As am I. It did get me thinking...in two man are you going opposite since the inbounding team is on the other end of the court? That would give the T a better chance to see a time out request in their peripheral and the L a better chance of seeing/hearing a request since it puts him/her nearer the bench.

I cant help you with two man. Havent done or thought about two man mechanics in over a decade.

Very jealous of 3 man areas coming from the land of 2 man. BillyMac, your "Welcome to Connecticut" picture is requested. (my idea of humor)

Since I'm already tableside to administer the completed free throw(s), that's where I administer the throw-in.

I've never had a player ask to move to the other side, but he's entitled, under the rules. Since we're not allowed here to bounce the ball across the basket-line, I'd just move to the other side, and let my partner(s) know.

As the old lead/new trail coming out of a timeout after a goal, I've always just administered the throw-in on the same side of the court where I was when the timeout was granted.

The only exception is in a situation where I've wanted to get one official away from tableside, usually when I'm hoping to move myself/my partner away from a confrontational coach for awhile.

For example:
Coach gets whacked by my partner, who then moves to the opposite side of the court to administer the throw-in after the foul shots for the T. Next trip down the court, partner calls a foul during a try, reports, and stays tableside. Coach is still steaming, but not enough for a second T. If the timeout follows these shots, I'm going to try to set up so that my partner starts out opposite the table when we resume play.

I can only remember explicitly doing this once, but at the time, it seemed like the best course of action. By the time my partner got back tableside again, the coach had calmed down and the game finished without further incident.

table side
 

I can only speak to 3-person mechanics, but you want the center to have last shot responsibilities, as he/she typically has the best angle to see the ball leave the hand and the clock/light at the same time. In NCAA-W (center) and NFHS (opposite the table), you want that center opposite, so I'd recommend the trail staying table side.

Bye Bye Birdie ...
 

No way. Didn't you see what happened to mutantducky?

My opinion regarding this situation is this: Where would the Game Officials be if no Team Time-out had occurred? That is the Game Officials should be where the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower.

MTD, Sr.

I will move, every time.

That's pretty funny.

Coaches appreciate this courtesy and it helps to build positive rapport. It in no way hurts the crew to go ahead and adjust.

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Does 'should' mean you are not moving?

I corrected the last sentence by changing "when" to "where".

I am 64 and I only move when I have to move, LOL!

My opinion, this is confusing to partners and looks lazy. Plus it puts the basket in my direct line of sight. If something happens at the spot, I want to be looking outside in not across the lane.

Don't we always resume play in the same positions we were before the timeout?

Except the player can have the ball anywhere along the endline. Who am I to tell him where to start?

Not you, the Mechanics Manual. :D

I really wish the NFHS would give us the option to bounce the ball across the lane.

Be a rebel!

They can make the throwin from anywhere along the line. Nothing says they get to pick where they get the ball, just that they can move to another spot if they like. Of course, on the flip side, there is nothing that says otherwise either.

I have no idea what you are trying to convey. And what looks lazy and confuses partners? :confused: What would look lazy to me is telling A1 he has to start where you tell him just to save the C and new Lead walking a few steps to swap positions.

No reason not to move, really. He's going to be over there anyway, so you may as well put your crew in the proper position based on that.

How would you handle a throw-in to half court, opposite the table, followed by a quick shot...?
Can the average 64 year old veteran get there in time to get that last shot or do you have the C table side get the last shot?

If I'm opposite trail, I still have the last shot even if I'm at the end line. I don't have to be on top of the shooter to see if he's released the ball before the horn. I can see the sun and it's 93 million miles away.

Depending on the earth's orbit, you could be off by a million miles or so and therefore miss the release of that shot.
Sorry coach, I tried to hold my whistle on that one...:D

I can't believe there is this much discussion on this topic. If the player wants the ball on the other side of the basket, move over there and administer the throw. C & T need to adjust to your new positioning.

I always move if the player asks and only once had a partner complain that I made him "long switch." Moving up to become the C in this situation isn't a long switch, and if your legs can't get you to the proper position you've got more problems than this.

We can shift from the standard "opposite" to "C tableside" in this situation IF all officials communicate during the stoppage.

But, all officials should have an opinion anyway. Nothing (almost) that happens away from the ball will matter as much as the shot.

Sure, but are all players as bright as the sun?

Their parents think so. :D

Only in the Lake Wobegon rec league.

Where the GV players are strong,
the male cheerleaders are good looking,
and the referees are above average?

It must be that all the good refs are in Lake Wobegone, as when I sit in the stands and listen to the comments about refs, it is pretty clear that all of the ones we get are way below average . . .;)

Drum Roll And Rim Shot To Follow ...
 

I'm so bright that my mother calls me Sonny.

Not in class.

Same here.

Peace

I cannot believe this is a discussion either. The player can throw the ball from anywhere he wishes. They do not get to dictate where I put the ball in play. And in my area we are not allowed by our mechanic to bounce the ball across the lane or anywhere on the end line.

I have in my 20 years and counting only had one coach make this request and they did not even communicate what they wanted done. He got a T for his actions. And I have gone on to work much better games and I have not seen that coach since. So I guess it is really not a big deal. ;)

Peace

I had a game this year where each team had a situation where they made the request and we satisfied the request on each occasion. This was in a college game and the crew thought it was no big deal at all. And both my partners have been working college ball at least 20 years.

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I'm shocked that crews simply wouldn't go "OK" and just do it. There are places where I draw a line in the sand, but this ain't it.

We give benches the spot on a designated spot throw-in. For an end line runner, why exactly can't they request a starting spot? Nobody's given me a good reason yet.

It is an extremely rare request. Most officials probably never get this request and when they do, it is confusing. I will say this again, I have only been asked for this request once and it was so confusing the coach got mad and had to be T'd. Then when he complained to the assignor, the assignor laughed it off. And as a clinician with my state, this is never discussed because I doubt anyone gets this request.

Peace

Oh Where, Oh Where Has My Little Dog Gone ???
 

True, it's an extremely rare request, but when it is requested, the NFHS should have some rule in place allowing officials to deal with the request. Either give it to the inbounder where the official wants it to be inbounded and let the inbounder run, or give it to the inbounder where the inbounder wants it.

Even without a request for a certain spot after a made basket, where time out is requested, and granted, with the ball still on the floor IAABO (and possibly NFHS) mechanics are ambivalent regarding where the inbounder will be handed the ball. Should officials inbound it for convenience sake (table side, or opposite table side) or should they inbound it as they were set up before the time out request? I would like to see this spelled out. Of course I would like own a villa in Tuscany, but that ain't gonna happen, is it?

The request is so rare, I bet no one even thinks about this. Why come up with a policy that never is an issue?


I have never said we do not use NF Mechanics, but keep telling that story.

Peace

NFHS Mechanics ...
 

Sorry. For some reason I thought that your association didn't follow NFHS mechanics 100%. Maybe hybrid?

I Hope That You Didn't Bet Your House ...
 

And you would certainly lose that bet. I thought about it, and many who posted on this forty-plus post thread thought about it.

So the NF Committee has had to address this issue? You are not on the committee. ;)

And other than the discussion I had when this request was made to me personally, I have never talked about this since with officials I actually work with or train in any camp.

Peace

Minutia ...
 

What's more important? Headband extensions, or how to handle the request detailed in this thread? The NFHS committee has dealt with such minutia in the past, why should it stop now? Eventually, we'll have a rulebook with a thousand pages, and a casebook with a thousand caseplays. That will kill a lot of trees.

I've gotten it twice in the last year and a half. BNR got it twice at the college level. We're somebodies, I'd think. I may be not as much of a somebody as he is, however.

Frankly, I respect the coach that does this. He understands the rule and asks a reasonable question/request from the crew. I'd accept the request and notify the other bench. Big whoop.

Well considering I see more different types of headbands in a week than I have ever had a request like people keep suggesting takes place, I would think the issues with uniforms likely need to be addressed more, if there is a rule in place. There is no such rule with where we give the ball and it obviously is not a problem across the country. And the NCAA addresses many more variations and situations and I have never had this ever addressed by them either way. So it appears that at the end of the day, it is left up to us to do what we want. Until we have other direction, I will not likely move and I am not bouncing the ball across the lane. If others choose to do different, that is no sweat off my back for sure.

As I said before, the NF does not nearly address as many situations as the NCAA. There are no weekly bulletins in the NF telling us what to do or what not to do. But once again, we do not work for the NF, we work for our states and some of you your LOA.

Peace

And that is great, but those are anecdotal situations, just like my case. And since I have never heard anyone having this as an issue or even discuss in a pre-game, I take it that at the end it is very rare if ever requested. Coaches ask all the time where the ball is located, but cannot think of any time they want the ball specifically at one side of the lane or not. And this includes the numerous summer games, tournament games, AAU or any other kind of game that this request could be easily made.

Well that is great, but I do not ever see these requests. There is nothing to deny when you never see a single request of this nature.

I also do not care if you move all the officials. I might be confused at first if I am not the official bringing in the ball, but there are so many bigger things to be upset by.

Peace

Frequency, Or Importance To The Game ???
 

How often do we see shoes with lights in them? Yet the NFHS decided to address that issue. And gloves? How often are we asked to allow players to wear gloves? The NFHS addressed that issue, didn't it? In the past the NFHS has shown a willingness to rule on situations that do not occur very frequently. What's to stop them from continuing to rule on such infrequent matters?

Again sounds like a straw man argument. The issue is not what the NF has seen, the issue is does it really matter? It must not matter in their interpretation. This sounds like something that a few of you are more concerned with than anyone else honestly.

Peace

I also had a game this year where a coach asked which side the throw-in would start and I told him "which ever side you tell us you want it to start".

It Rarely Happens, But When It Does, It Matters ...
 

In a one point game with four seconds remaining, I believe that a coach requesting a particular spot for a run the endline throwin is more important than whether, or not, lighted shoes are legal. I understand that a similar situation (not necessarily with the same score, and time) actually led to the charging of a technical foul in at least one game. I wasn't there, I just heard about it.

To Late To Decide ???
 

Sounds sensible. What if this request came after the other coach asked where the throwin was going to take place and the official answered, "Where the ball is" (pointing to his partner holding the ball)?

I've just come up with a new item for my pre-games, so that won't happen. :)

I have had several games with the last shot was the game decider made or missed, I have yet to have such a request.

The situation that happened over 10 years ago was after a timeout and in the middle of the game in the first half.

Peace

Never, Ever ...
 

And I've never had a coach request that a player be allowed to wear gloves, but when I do, the NFHS tells me how to handle it.

Believe it, or not, I did, only once, have to deal with shoes that light up. I'm probably the only Forum member to deal with this very rare issue. Do I get a prize?

Pick A Card, Any Card ...
 

What does the time of the game, or the score of the game (other than to underscore the importance of this situation), or the fact that this happened ten years ago (other than to underscore the rarity of this situation), have to do with the question at hand?

Should a coach have a right, by rule, to select which side of the lane he wants the throwin to occur after a timeout after a made basket?

Also, from a mechanics perspective, with no request for a certain spot; after a made basket, when time out is requested, and granted, with the ball still on the floor, after the timeout should officials inbound it for convenience sake, or should they inbound it as they were set up before the time out request (if the new trail was tableside, he should stay tableside after the timeout)?

I've been posting all day, so I might as well give an opinion: I like the later, with no rule change allowing the coach to select a side.

Are my opinions correct by rule, or by mechanic? I don't know, but that's the way I would like see this issue resolved.

In real game, like a few Forum members have already stated, I would probably allow the coach's request if it were made before one of the officials had already "marked" a spot by his location with the ball.

After the sport is "marked", I don't want to get involved with dueling coaches, "But your partner was standing over there (pointing) with the ball".

OK and your point is what? This is not about what has been addressed more. I am sure someone tried to use gloves and that needed to be addressed as there was no such rule covering gloves. Where someone has the ball put in play is not a big deal, it is not something specific.

Once again, I do not ever see the request. If there is one, I will cross that bridge when I get to it. But until then, I am not asking or doing anything different. I will put the ball on the side that I am after a basket. And I am certainly not going to change after an immediate stoppage like a substitution. If the NF or the IHSA wants to address this and come up with a policy, I will follow. But to me there are some things we worry about that make no difference and this to me is one of those things. And unlike you, we work 3 person all the time for varsity games. This would be more than just a slight movement.

Peace

Peace ...
 

We agree in theory.

A coach should not have a right, by rule, to select which side of the lane he wants the throwin to occur after a timeout after a made basket.

I'm just not sure if everybody else agrees with us. Maybe they do on a written test, but will they agree with us in a real game situation? We've seen some differing opinions, by some very knowledgeable basketball officials, in this thread. A little guidance from the NFHS would clear this up for everybody. I'm a big fan of consistency.

Frequency ???
 

C'mon. My point isn't that hard to see, but I'll spell it out.

In the past, the NFHS has shown a willingness to rule on situations that very rarely occur (lighted shoes), so the infrequency of this situation (selecting which side of the lane) should not have any impact on the willingness of the NFHS to rule on this situation, or to not rule on this situation. Other factors should come into play, not just the frequency, or infrequency, of the situation.

Your point is very hard to see when you are talking about something that has nothing to do with the original topic. This is not about what uniforms are being worn, this is about a request that could theoretically happen but almost never does (based on just the conversations here). We know that players attempt to wear all kinds of stuff and usually will claim no one told them it was illegal before. Those are also likely safety or even issues of uniformity. Every single game I have to deal with a uniform issue of either a player wearing something that does not fit the current rules or does not fit specifications. Still waiting for the one game a coach makes a request to where I give them the ball or my partners. But like other things we do, this is cultural. Maybe you and others have coaches that cannot design plays to go to either side. But apparently this is not an issue where I live as players can even run to the other side or they flip the movement. Either way so rare I never hear anyone talk about this and we seem to have coaches that are OK with where we put the ball. And once again, if you feel the need to accommodate such a request, that is on you. I am not going to criticize you for doing that, I just know what I am going to do or not do.

Peace

Consistency ???
 

Examples:

(Always listen to bob.)

A drum roll please:

Sometimes An Example Is Just An Example (With Apologies To Sigmund Freud) ...
 

It's not about lighted shoes. Open up your horizons (sometimes you remind me of me, tunnel vision, no offense). In the past, the NFHS has shown a willingness to rule on situations that very rarely occur. Now pick your favorite infrequent topic, it doesn't have to be about about a uniform, or equipment issue. Ten second limit on a free throws? Players standing on the shoulders of teammates? Players along a sideline crowded together passing the ball back and forth to each other? Just because it's infrequent doesn't automatically mean that the NFHS is unwilling to deal with the issue.

I work all 3-man, it's still just a slight adjustment.

I understand, just do not get the request. And do not see why it matters if you can coach. ;)

Peace

I must be bored.....
 

I am going to assume that we deal with real basketball compared to where you live. Those kind of antics would get you ridiculed here. We are a real basketball state with real basketball players. The most things we have to deal with is someone wearing the wrong color for their sleeves. It has nothing to do with tunnel vision, it has to do with what real basketball players and coaches would stand for. Gloves?? This is not football or baseball.


OK and none of this has anything to do with where we put the ball on a throw-in.

And you have a reading problem, I did not say the NF should not or would not address this, but they haven't at this point or we would not be talking about this in complete hypotheticals. And the NF or even my state has not addressed this IMO because it has not been an issue obviously. IF it was an issue, I am sure it would be addressed. Maybe one day they will address this, but I cannot see why. Again I think a good coach does not need the ball to be on one side of the lane to coach his/her throw-in set. Just like they do when the ball is on the other side of the court and the direction is different. What are coaches going to do when they do not have the right to "run the end line?" What are they going to do when it is a spot throw-in? I have never seen a good coach had difficulty teaching something this simple.

Peace

Automatic ...
 

Why haven't you figured out that I agree with almost everything that you say? Maybe tunnel vision?

It's not about lighted shoes. It's not about gloves. It's not about headbands with extensions. And it's no longer about which side of the lane to put the ball in play.

It's about your insistence that the NFHS would not confider a rule change (any rule change, not only equipment, or which side of the lane to put the ball in play) due to it's infrequency. I can (and already have) came up with NFHS rule situations that we seldom, if ever, see in a real game, in either Illinois, or Connecticut.

Forget lighted shoes. Forget gloves. Forgot headbands with extensions. Forget which side of the lane. Look at the big picture, breaking away from that tunnel vision. It's my opinion (based on some factual examples of rules that we very rarely see) that the NFHS will consider a rule change on several factors and will not automatically not consider a rule change just because it only happens only once in a blue moon. They might consider various factors like impact on the game, costs, impact on existing rules, unintended consequences, simplicity of enforcement, integrity of the game, advantage, disadvantage, improving the game, etc., but they won't automatically reject a rule change just because it only happens infrequently. Now if it never happens, and the NFHS believes that it never will happen, then I agree with you, that it wouldn't be considered, but the topic of this thread does happen, very rarely, almost never, but not never.

Will the NFHS consider a rule change if the situation happens only once, or twice, over several years? I'm not saying that they will, but I'm saying that they will not automatically reject the proposal based only on infrequency, but will consider other factors that may lead them to reject such a rule change.

(Administer: Your honor, may I please treat the poster as a hostile poster?)

And you still lost your bet. You were dead wrong. Nothing will change that. Not telling me I can't read, and not telling me that we don't have real basketball in Connecticut. Now, just exactly what did you bet? Be a man, admit that you were wrong, be a good loser, or just be any old kind of loser, and pay up. Or, are you a welcher?

I did not think the issue was who agreed or disagreed. Maybe you have a reading problem. ;)

Then why did you bring them up? Again, just like when you post a picture about a non-related topic. But that is what you do (like the Geico commercial).

I do not care what the NF does, they currently have no specific handling of this situation. Is that not true? I do not see a rule or mechanics reference that suggests we do anything either way. We are again left to our opinion and our practices that we decide to use. That is the only point I have ever made here. You keep talking about other issues.

If the NF decides to have a rules change, I will worry about it at that time. Right now, there is no such rule or procedure in any way. And again you keep posting as if you need my agreement to move on.

Peace

What About The Bet ???
 

Agree 100%.

Which is exactly why several Forum members can't agree on the interpretation of this very rare event.

Infer Or Deduce ...
 

They're called examples and are used as a part (and only a part) of a proof of a generality.

Debating 101.

OK and still has nothing to do with my point of view on this issue. When the NF comes up with a procedure, we all can tell the officials we know what they should do and why. Right now we have nothing but an opinion either way, including mine.

Peace

I'm Pretty Sure That You're Not A Welcher ...
 

There's the matter of the bet. Then we can all mosey on along.

Where's The Like Button ???
 

Agree 100%, and in regard to your interpretation opinion, I like it, while others may not.

I think you're wrong, Billy. The thrower-in should be able to stand anywhere along the end line. Whether the officials adjust shouldn't be their problem....

And it could be said that where we hand the ball to them is not our problem either.

Still all about opinions, not an actual procedure.

I feel no need to accommodate them on when what we do mechanically.

Peace

What if the thrower in goes to the spot he wants? The rule says he can throw from any spot on the end line, after all.

I would do just like I always do, bring them to where I am standing or want to put the ball in play.

Do you let them stand in the lane for a throw-in? I don't.

Peace

Not on a spot throw. However the rulebook says ..."A throw in anywhere along the endline". How can we prohibit what the rules expressly allow?

Spot ???
 

Good point. Are there differences between a throwin, and an indicated (an IAABO term) throwin spot (not designated)? Even on a run the endline throwin we have to start off somewhere, we can't be running along the endline with the player until we put the ball at his disposal.

Exactly. And why shouldn't the player choose that spot?

Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle ...
 

Because of this (below):

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7137/7...40b397d7_m.jpg

Is A Throwin The Same As A Throwin Spot ???
 

He can. Officials, not players, are authorized to indicate (IAABO term) a spot. After that, on a run the endline throwin, the player can choose to make the throwin from anywhere along the endline, even in the middle of the lane (even though I would never hand the ball to him there).

Checkout my title: Is A Throwin The Same As A Throwin Spot ??? Note that it's in the form of a question, just like on Jeopardy.

I know this, but I never hand the ball with the player in the lane. I have always been told you give the ball to them on one side of the lane (that is the mechanic too if I am not mistaken).

Peace

Do you only pick one of the two spots where there are arrows on the sideline?

By the way, I'm not advocating for giving the ball to someone standing in the middle of the lane, but I don't think this diagram would be the reason why.

https://scontent.fdtw1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...60123738_o.jpg

This is a better diagram. You do not put the ball in the lane according to the beloved manual.

Peace

My comment was only related to bouncing the ball across the lane. Slightly different scenario, but it illustrates the point of bouncing the ball across the lane and why it can be confusing.

In 2 Man, if I am the T and see the ball go OOB on T side of the court, I am going to make the assumption that my partner is going to walk across the lane and take the ball out where it went OOB. When I turn up the court to become new lead and rotate from one side to another, I don't want to see my partner on the same side. For me its consistency, if we always "take it out" where it went out, then its a lot easier for the new L to get into the right position.

The ball didn't go OOB; its a made basket followed by time out. You are bringing up a situation that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

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If it doesn't matter, then how is this thread now nearly 100 posts strong?

You mean the diagram for spot throw ins?

Well we have a lot of request from coaches or players that do not matter. I am just waiting for coaches to make a big deal out of this either way. I simply do not hear much of anything from coaches on this who we seem to want to bend over so much for on something so silly as where we hand the ball to them.

Peace

Thanks For Sharing ...
 

Thanks for taking the time to scan the page from the manual. We would have believed you if you just quoted the manual.

"Beloved"? Get a room.

That's French For Successful Criticism ...
 

Touché.

(My high school French teacher, Mrs. Schliffer, would be so proud of me. I even remembered to add the accent aigu.)

Is The Sky Blue ??? Is The Pope Catholic ??? Do Bears ... ???
 

Is this a rhetorical question?

It's not bending over backwards for me. Just a request that I've never had a problem fulfilling. Doesn't interrupt the game, doesn't take any extra time. Partners figure out real quick where they're supposed to go after the first horn based on where I'm standing with the ball. It's all rather ho-hum to me.

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Gotcha. I still believe that we have the right to tell them where we want to hand the ball to them. Again, this is why this is the way it is, we have no direction either way. So you are not wrong and I never said you were, but I am not moving unless it is made very clear to me what they are asking. The problem that request when I had it was very unclear and confusing. I am not taking a lot of time to try to figure them out on something where we are already set up.

Peace

Consistency, Consistency, Consistency ...
 

I don't believe that I've ever had such a request, but if I did I would probably honor it, unless (as I've indicated previously) it was complicated by myself, or my partner, already marking the throwin location (note that I didn't use the word spot) by standing at said location with the ball (as we're supposed to do). Doing this would give the nonrequesting team (new defense) a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

This is exactly why it would be nice (not absolutely needed, but just nice) to get some guidance from the NFHS regarding this matter.