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-   -   FT Shooter Fouled (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100530-ft-shooter-fouled.html)

The_Rookie Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:04pm
FT Shooter Fouled
 
A1 is shooting 2....B1 commits a Hard Foul on A1 who has not left her spot on FT line and ends up on the floor.

The contact is deemed excessive as B1 was going with her bottom right at A1's knee.

Question:

1) If this happens after the 1st FT..is this a Technical Foul?

2) If this happens after 2nd FT..is this an Intentional Foul?

bob jenkins Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973425)
A1 is shooting 2....B1 commits a Hard Foul on A1 who has not left her spot on FT line and ends up on the floor.

The contact is deemed excessive as B1 was going with her bottom right at A1's knee.

Question:

1) If this happens after the 1st FT..is this a Technical Foul?

2) If this happens after 2nd FT..is this an Intentional Foul?
Assuming the contact rises to the level of a foul,

Is live-ball contact ever a T?

Is dead-ball contact (other than on or by an airborne shooter) ever not a T?

Are "Intentional" and "Technical" exclusive? Or, could this be an Intentional Technical?

Dad Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:11pm
Why would it matter if it was 1st or 2nd FT for whether it was intentional/tech?

Live ball on a FT

bob jenkins Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973427)
Why would it matter if it was 1st or 2nd FT for whether it was intentional/tech?

Live ball on a FT
Sure -- but *after* the FT (which was the question) is going to be a dead ball after the first FT and may or may not be a dead ball after the second FT.

The_Rookie Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973427)
Why would it matter if it was 1st or 2nd FT for whether it was intentional/tech?

Live ball on a FT
My partner who is a Veteran Made the call and in our Post game discussed it.

He told me that after the 1st FT..ball is dead thus a "T"

After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.

Is his thought process correct?

Dad Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 973428)
Sure -- but *after* the FT (which was the question) is going to be a dead ball after the first FT and may or may not be a dead ball after the second FT.
Seemed like the OP may have though dead ball on first FT and live ball on second.

Dad Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973429)
My partner who is a Veteran Made the call and in our Post game discussed it.

He told me that after the 1st FT..ball is dead thus a "T"

After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.

Is his thought process correct?
You post said deemed it excessive. That excessive statement in the rules only applies to a live ball foul, not dead.

I'd find it extremely hard to find a T on this play.

BlueDevilRef Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:39pm
From the description, I would be okay with an intentional. Not a T though. Seems it was a really excessive contact box out. No place for that, especially since fouls on FT and line violations on FT's is a POE this year.


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The_Rookie Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973431)
You post said deemed it excessive. That excessive statement in the rules only applies to a live ball foul, not dead.

I'd find it extremely hard to find a T on this play.
My apologies..What our Post game discussion focused on was that if the foul occurred after 1st FT..this is dead ball contact and a T. Since it actually occurred after 2nd FT it is live ball and ruled Excessive and thus Intentional

Dad Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 973432)
From the description, I would be okay with an intentional. Not a T though. Seems it was a really excessive contact box out. No place for that, especially since fouls on FT and line violations on FT's is a POE this year.


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I thought the only emphasis was the defense crossing the FT line before the shot hit the rim. FT shooter can't cross and no one can come in. What's this POE you're talking about?

Dad Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973433)
My apologies..What our Post game discussion focused on was that if the foul occurred after 1st FT..this is dead ball contact and a T. Since it actually occurred after 2nd FT it is live ball and ruled Excessive and thus Intentional
Could very well be intentional on the 1st FT also depending on when the contact was.

Was the girl just boxing her out and displaced her? For me it really has to be a windup hit on a box out for me to even consider a tech/intentional.

bob jenkins Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973429)
My partner who is a Veteran Made the call and in our Post game discussed it.

He told me that after the 1st FT..ball is dead thus a "T"
That's correct -- it's an Intentional Technical Foul

Quote:
After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.
Assuming the FT is missed, it's an Intentional Personal Foul. IF the FT was made, the ball is dead, so it's an Intentional Technical Foul.

And, in either case, if the contact was somehow before the FT Ended (see the rule on FTs to determine this), both are IP fouls.

Rule 4 is your friend.

Nevadaref Sat Dec 19, 2015 03:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 973436)
That's correct -- it's an Intentional Technical Foul



Assuming the FT is missed, it's an Intentional Personal Foul. IF the FT was made, the ball is dead, so it's an Intentional Technical Foul.

And, in either case, if the contact was somehow before the FT Ended (see the rule on FTs to determine this), both are IP fouls.

Rule 4 is your friend.
The above answer by Bob is correct.
You need to determine whether the FT was still in progress or over for the first attempt. For the second, you do the same, but realize that the ball remains live on an unsuccessful attempt.

Nevadaref Sat Dec 19, 2015 03:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973431)
You post said deemed it excessive. That excessive statement in the rules only applies to a live ball foul, not dead.

I'd find it extremely hard to find a T on this play.
Not true. Otherwise we wouldn't have rule instructing us to ignore dead ball contact which isn't intentional or flagrant.

BlueDevilRef Sat Dec 19, 2015 08:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973434)
I thought the only emphasis was the defense crossing the FT line before the shot hit the rim. FT shooter can't cross and no one can come in. What's this POE you're talking about?

I thought some of the emphasis was on contact as well. Maybe not actually a POE but it is mentioned within the flyer that comes out with rule books. POE was likely misspeaking on my part.


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