The Official Forum
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   FT Shooter Fouled (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100530-ft-shooter-fouled.html)

Dad Sat Dec 19, 2015 09:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 973442)
Not true. Otherwise we wouldn't have rule instructing us to ignore dead ball contact which isn't intentional or flagrant.
How is it not true? I don't really see the relevance as there are rules which apply to dead ball contact; this just isn't one of them.

d. Excessive contact with an opponent while the ball is live or until an airborne shooter returns to the floor

It's even the only highlighted part of this rule.

johnny d Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973429)
After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.

Is his thought process correct?
Must have been hard to play the rest of the game once the ball started doing what it wanted :D

Adam Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973431)
You post said deemed it excessive. That excessive statement in the rules only applies to a live ball foul, not dead.

I'd find it extremely hard to find a T on this play.
Not quite true. Excessive is part of the definition of intentional foul, which is how we determine whether to ignore dead ball contact or call a technical foul.

The only way the ball is live immediately after a FT is over is if the shot is missed.

Most of these fouls are going to actually occur during the free throw, not after.

Rob1968 Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 973447)
How is it not true? I don't really see the relevance as there are rules which apply to dead ball contact; this just isn't one of them.

d. Excessive contact with an opponent while the ball is live or until an airborne shooter returns to the floor

It's even the only highlighted part of this rule.
Perhaps we consider 10-3-7 to speak to the subject:

A player shall not . . . Intentionally or flagrantly contact an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.

Dad Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 973450)
Not quite true. Excessive is part of the definition of intentional foul, which is how we determine whether to ignore dead ball contact or call a technical foul.

The only way the ball is live immediately after a FT is over is if the shot is missed.

Most of these fouls are going to actually occur during the free throw, not after.
The vet in the OP said T so it'd have to be dead ball.

I believe officials are misusing the word excessive and why it was put into the rule book and highlighted for that matter. There's even a case book where there is a BLOCK and then contact. The foul is ruled intentional because the contact was excessive. Just because something is excessive, more than normal contact doesn't mean I'm calling anything on a dead ball. Now, there's a lot in the rules on when to call a dead ball technical for contact, and I don't think this was the intent of putting the word excessive on paper.

I'm not saying excessive contact is an automatic pass. I am saying that ruling contact is excessive and an easy intentional during live ball doesn't mean I'm calling a tech during a dead ball.

I don't see the connection between a live ball intentional due to excessive contact and there being a T on the same play in dead ball situation. I don't believe this statement can be used by itself as a reason for a T on the OPs play.

Dad Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 973452)
Perhaps we consider 10-3-7 to speak to the subject:

A player shall not . . . Intentionally or flagrantly contact an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.
Consider it and then read what I wrote. If that's not enough go to the rule definitions and then the corresponding case book studies. You don't need to bother with the word excessive on a dead ball technical. You do however have to use it during live ball, especially during an airborne shooter situation. The casebook talks about a shooting situation when there is excessive contact.

During a live ball, on a normal play, I'm likely to call an intentional if there is excessive contact. During a dead ball you don't ask yourself if it was excessive and then decide to give a technical. The part of the rule I quoted doesn't ever need to be used to decide if you're giving a T during dead ball.

Adam Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:40am
The rule is that dead ball contact is to be ignored unless it is deemed intentional or flagrant. Unless you're going to include "excessive" as a means of determining whether or not it can be deemed intentional, then it sounds like the contact in the OP should have been ignored.

just another ref Sat Dec 19, 2015 03:19pm
It is a given in the OP that the contact was ruled to be excessive. If so, I see no way to ignore it. The definition for an intentional personal foul and an intentional technical foul are, for all practical purposes, the same definition.

Raymond Sat Dec 19, 2015 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973429)
My partner who is a Veteran Made the call and in our Post game discussed it.

He told me that after the 1st FT..ball is dead thus a "T"

After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.

Is his thought process correct?
Did the contact occur after the free throw ended or before it ended?

jmwking Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 973429)
My partner who is a Veteran Made the call and in our Post game discussed it.

He told me that after the 1st FT..ball is dead thus a "T"

After 2nd FT, ball is alive thus Intentional.

Is his thought process correct?
You don't say which rules. In NCAA, a ball is live when at the disposal of the free-thrower. No distinction between which of any particular set of FTs.

Scooby Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:29pm
I found this on the NFHS website.
Clarification Preseason Guide Article “Enforce Illegal Contact on Free Thrower and Violations During Free Throw”, page 6, second paragraph: The free thrower must remain within the free throw semi-circle until the ball contacts the basket ring or the shot is made or missed. The same rule applies to all other players who do not occupy free throw lane line marked spaces. Players who occupy free throw lane line marked spaces during free throws may enter the free-throw lane upon the free thrower releasing the ball; however, should a defensive player cross the free-throw line too soon, it is a violation. A delayed violation signal is to be displayed. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. If the free throw is unsuccessful, the violation is enforced and a substitute free throw is awarded. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. Whether the free throw is or is not successful, the penalty for the personal foul is awarded. If the free thrower’s team is in a bonus situation, the free thrower would be awarded a one-and-one or two free throws. If the free thrower’s team is not in a bonus situation, his or her team would be awarded a throw-in along the end line.

BlueDevilRef Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 973494)
I found this on the NFHS website.

Clarification Preseason Guide Article “Enforce Illegal Contact on Free Thrower and Violations During Free Throw”, page 6, second paragraph: The free thrower must remain within the free throw semi-circle until the ball contacts the basket ring or the shot is made or missed. The same rule applies to all other players who do not occupy free throw lane line marked spaces. Players who occupy free throw lane line marked spaces during free throws may enter the free-throw lane upon the free thrower releasing the ball; however, should a defensive player cross the free-throw line too soon, it is a violation. A delayed violation signal is to be displayed. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. If the free throw is unsuccessful, the violation is enforced and a substitute free throw is awarded. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. Whether the free throw is or is not successful, the penalty for the personal foul is awarded. If the free thrower’s team is in a bonus situation, the free thrower would be awarded a one-and-one or two free throws. If the free thrower’s team is not in a bonus situation, his or her team would be awarded a throw-in along the end line.

This is what I was talking about. Not really a POE but still something to be aware of. And might not even be a rule change, I've not done it long enough to know better


I wish I had a cool signature

just another ref Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:44pm
But all this doesn't address the question of dead ball contact. For this to be a violation, the defender has to cross the free throw line before the ball hits.

Raymond Sun Dec 20, 2015 08:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 973496)
But all this doesn't address the question of dead ball contact. For this to be a violation, the defender has to cross the free throw line before the ball hits.
The description of the play in the OP is very lacking.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

bob jenkins Sun Dec 20, 2015 08:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwking (Post 973491)
You don't say which rules. In NCAA, a ball is live when at the disposal of the free-thrower. No distinction between which of any particular set of FTs.
Same in FED.

But, either way, I'm pretty sure that the OP didn't happen while the ball was at the disposal of the FT shooter (although it's possible), but rather after the ball had been released by B1 (or whoever) was "blocking out."


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00pm.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1