Clock didn't start on a last Second Shot

[splitveer]

NFHS Rules:
A1 has a throw in with 4.6 seconds left. Team A is down by 1. We have talked numerous times with the clock operator about starting the clock on the chop. The ball is thrown in bounds and legally touched. The clock starts at least a second or two late. How should we handle this situation?

Let it play out and manually count?

Kill the play once we know the clock hasn't started and restart the situation?

Thoughts?

Does it change when there is only 1.2 seconds on the clock?

Thanks

[ODog]

Originally Posted by splitveer

Let it play out and manually count?

Does it change when there is only 1.2 seconds on the clock?

YES.

NO.

I've been burned before by your exact scenario(s), and that's my takeaway.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by splitveer

NFHS Rules:
A1 has a throw in with 4.6 seconds left. Team A is down by 1. We have talked numerous times with the clock operator about starting the clock on the chop. The ball is thrown in bounds and legally touched. The clock starts at least a second or two late. How should we handle this situation?

Let it play out and manually count?

Kill the play once we know the clock hasn't started and restart the situation?

Thoughts?

Does it change when there is only 1.2 seconds on the clock?

Thanks

At 4.6 I would be tempted to blow the play dead after a second, put 3.6 on the clock remind the clock operator on his/her duties and inform the teams that from this point if there is discrepancy between the clock and chop that they should play until the end (which could be a whistle if the clock doesn't start on time or the horn if it does).

I mean at 3.6 seconds they won't have time to check the clock and any play will be a quick shot, drive to backdoor cut to the basket.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by ODog

YES.

NO.

I've been burned before by your exact scenario(s), and that's my takeaway.

Originally Posted by deecee

At 4.6 I would be tempted to blow the play dead after a second, put 3.6 on the clock remind the clock operator on his/her duties and inform the teams that from this point if there is discrepancy between the clock and chop that they should play until the end (which could be a whistle if the clock doesn't start on time or the horn if it does).

I mean at 3.6 seconds they won't have time to check the clock and any play will be a quick shot, drive to backdoor cut to the basket.

I think I agree with the manual count. If you kill the play, then you're making the offensive team inbound again, which is usually advantage to the defense, AND they must get their shot off quicker. I think there is rules support for stopping the play immediately, but be sure you're ready for the fallout, because at least one of those coaches is not going to be very happy...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I think I agree with the manual count. If you kill the play, then you're making the offensive team inbound again, which is usually advantage to the defense, AND they must get their shot off quicker. I think there is rules support for stopping the play immediately, but be sure you're ready for the fallout, because at least one of those coaches is not going to be very happy...

The only way I wouldn't blow it dead was if (1) the defense steals the ball and has an uncontested layup or (2) the offense has an immediate scoring opportunity. I would wait for the shot attempt to end and then clean this mess up, which could very well be the end of the game.

[Camron Rust]

If you don't blow it dead and fix it, you're going to have a mess when team A, as they are working for a shot, thinks that have a couple more seconds left and you blow your whistle to end the game with 2.0 seconds showing.

Stop it, take 2 off, resume.

Hopefully, it is team A's clock keeper. If the coach complains in such a case, tell the coach it is their timer.

[Gutierrez7]

Originally Posted by splitveer

NFHS Rules:
A1 has a throw in with 4.6 seconds left. Team A is down by 1. We have talked numerous times with the clock operator about starting the clock on the chop. The ball is thrown in bounds and legally touched. The clock starts at least a second or two late. How should we handle this situation?

Let it play out and manually count?

Kill the play once we know the clock hasn't started and restart the situation?

Thoughts?

Does it change when there is only 1.2 seconds on the clock?

Thanks

Tough scenario....

"The clock starts at least a second or two late." Must have definite knowledge; Is it 1 or 2?

Presuming you have "definite knowledge"; player control (only having team control with a loose ball thats about to get stolen, good luck with that), blow it dead, correct the time and resume throw in closest to where the ball was at the whistle blown.

There was a test question this year on the Refresher Exam similar to this play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gutierrez7

"The clock starts at least a second or two late." Must have definite knowledge; Is it 1 or 2?

If you know it's "at least one or two" then you have definite knowledge that it was one.

[crosscountry55]

The OP stated that the clock operator had become a known liability by the end of the game.

Soooo....I completely agree with the idea of a manual count in the closing seconds of a game like this. That's good preventive officiating. Make it a visible count so that you could later defend your action/decision to an assignor, coach, etc. The first thing they always check is the video.

[Dad]

You should never, ever, manually count and blow the whistle to end the game before the horn sounds in this scenario.

If you do, you may as well flip off the coach while you're at it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

You should never, ever, manually count and blow the whistle to end the game before the horn sounds in this scenario.

If you do, you may as well flip off the coach while you're at it.

This is not proper advice nor supported by rule. It's not ideal but teams don't get multiple attempts simply because the clock didn't start. I also won't stop play if a team has an imminent opportunity to score. In this case one coach or the other will "feel" ripped off. That's not my concern, and neither should it be yours.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The OP stated that the clock operator had become a known liability by the end of the game.

Soooo....I completely agree with the idea of a manual count in the closing seconds of a game like this. That's good preventive officiating. Make it a visible count so that you could later defend your action/decision to an assignor, coach, etc. The first thing they always check is the video.

We were having clock issues in our JV/V DH last night; don't know if was b/c of the operator or b/c the switch was malfunctioning. My partner terminated one quarter in the JV game when the clock didn't start.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is not proper advice nor supported by rule. It's not ideal but teams don't get multiple attempts simply because the clock didn't start. I also won't stop play if a team has an imminent opportunity to score. In this case one coach or the other will "feel" ripped off. That's not my concern, and neither should it be yours.

There's no way you believe what you posted. If these scenarios aren't your concern then why are you an official?

This is never happening in one of my games. Close game with a probable one possession to go to determine the game and you think I'm going to let the table screw it up? Fix the issue earlier or do it then, but my clock is starting when it should for this play.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

There's no way you believe what you posted. If these scenarios aren't your concern then why are you an official?

This is never happening in one of my games. Close game with a probable one possession to go to determine the game and you think I'm going to let the table screw it up? Fix the issue earlier or do it then, but my clock is starting when it should for this play.

What do you do when it doesn't? Under a second to play, shot goes in versus miss?

I like that you think you can control what another person is going to do with utmost certainty.

As to coaches feelings, they are not my concern and they shouldn't be any officials concern. That's why I do this.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Dad

There's no way you believe what you posted. If these scenarios aren't your concern then why are you an official?

This is never happening in one of my games. Close game with a probable one possession to go to determine the game and you think I'm going to let the table screw it up? Fix the issue earlier or do it then, but my clock is starting when it should for this play.

I would never say never

Varisty level or above....

IMO all Deecee is saying is that we can only do what is supported by rule. We can't just interject what we think is fair. Adversity is part of the game and life. Sometimes it is what it is....

We are fair and impartial, and fair doesn't always mean equal