You keep track of timeouts how?

[JetMetFan]

To answer the various questions that have arisen (and some that haven't)...

*No, this wasn't a league game though being on a Sunday didn't have anything to do with that.
*It was an 8-team tournament (NYC Public Schools vs. NYC Catholic Schools)
*The scorekeeper was the only scorekeeper at the table so he was it. I've been involved with similar situations with a single scorekeeper at the table and that person always had sense enough to keep track of timeouts by writing them down.

One other thing...

*Regarding the "dereliction of duty" comment: While I always speak with the scorers and timers before a game in 20+ years it never occurred to me to ask a scorekeeper - who has a book sitting in front of them with a spot marked "timeouts" - whether they were writing them down. My R has 30 years in and I'm sure it never occurred to him, either.
*I don't have my rule book on me since I'm at work so...please find the rule citation that says we have to make sure the official scorer SHALL performer his/her duties.
*The R designates the official scorer, etc. and according to the NF manual the R confers with the scorer and timer before the game regarding their responsibilities. Again, if I'm the R and I ask a kid about keeping track of timeouts during the game never in 100 years would it occur to me that the kid wouldn't think writing them down in the scorebook - since they're writing everything else down in the scorebook - wouldn't be a fairly reasonable plan of action.

One "other" other thing...

*My game was the second of the four-game set. The scorer was the same person in game #1. Presumably he was keeping the info in his head during that game and it never became an issue. The only reason we even found out what was happening is he said it to a HC in my game. We alerted the crew in game #3 that it might want to ask the kid to put pencil to paper on timeouts as well as fouls and the score.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

*The scorekeeper was the only scorekeeper at the table so he was it. I've been involved with similar situations with a single scorekeeper at the table and that person always had sense enough to keep track of timeouts by writing them down.

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

As I mentioned in the OP, the team was keeping track but the HC was concerned when his assistant's total didn't match what the scorer told him. That triggered the whole conversation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

And these stats people on the bench have what authority in the game? I'm shocked that you would even consider listening to them!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And these stats people on the bench have what authority in the game? I'm shocked that you would even consider listening to them!

I did not say anything about having authority. But if I am keeping track of my timeouts that I call, I can raise a reasonable issue to tell the table and the officials there is a mistake. It is not the first time a table has screwed up and will not be the last. So yes if I have information that can get the situation right, I will use them. Not all the time is the table associated with the teams. I have had even the team that would benefit give the right information so that they do not benefit from an known mistake. But that is a lot better than you relying on the officials that do not carry around a pen and pad to know the timeout situation. Officials get it wrong when they switch whistles in their pocket and you expect officials off of memory with all the things going around to be a reliable source? I am a football official and we at least are supposed to write down the timeout situation on a card used by everyone. Never seen such a suggestion for basketball officials.

Peace

[SCalScoreKeeper]

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

I do not check the book at every quarter, that is what the table people are for. If they have a problem they should tell us, but they have a job to do and I do not micromanage them in their job.

Peace

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

I don't physically check the book, I go over and verbally ask the scorers if everything is good and they typically say yes and give me a thumbs up. I know where to sign my name in the book and that's about it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

By rule the R verifies the SCORE at the end of each half. Nothing else is checked. Not fouls, not time-outs, not who has played, etc.

How do I verify the score? I ask the people keeping the books at the table if what they have matches what is up on the scoreboard before I depart for halftime and I do the same somewhere in the last two minutes during a close ball game.

[Nevadaref]

In the end, all of this comes down to everyone doing their jobs and in a perfect world doing them without error.
The problem is that errors do occur and as an official, particularly if one is the R, it is important to know how to proceed when an error occurs.

This is something which separates officials from each other. How they proceed in unclear or problem situations. Your top guys handle them well and to the satisfaction of others. Lesser officials will not worry too much about it or point the finger at someone else.
I try to have someone on the crew with definite knowledge. If I can obtain that knowledge and fix the situation, I will. My best defense to such problems is to be prepared.

[JRutledge]

I equate this to any other knowledge of the game. You might have general knowledge, but what are you going to say if one of the participants do not believe you or buy your knowledge? I know I can look at different books and figure out a mistake, just like we do with any other kind of mistake. But if it is all in my head that is a harder sell IMO to others. It is not about blaming, teams school at the very least keep track of their own timeout situations (at least they do here). Heck they better keep track of their fouls and other important information. But if you the officiating crew is the main line of defense, I think that could cause more problems. We already get accused of having an agenda and now I have to not go by the people that are paid to also do a job.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

I don't know anybody who does this. Simply ask, Is the score right?

[JWP]

I try to check if the official book, the visiting book, and the scoreboard all matches at the end of the quarters and at halftime. If there has been a lot of fouls during the first half, I will also have the books compare fouls to make sure everybody is on the same page as well. I have never checked on timeouts.

But on this issue of book and time keepers, I work with a lot of young, rookie officials (they like to team them up with the Old Man) and while they may be well versed on critical elements of the game such as proper headband colors, they don't have a clue about taking a few minutes prior to the game and checking with the table.

This is critical at the lower levels, where often, the scorekeepers and timers are not well trained ... or trained at all. Most rookie timers have no idea regarding the concept of "chopping" time. Twice I have had guys turn off the clock after every made basket.

Last week, somebody asked if it was proper to designated the visiting book as official. If the home book doesn't seem competent and the visiting book obviously is, I just ask if anybody minds if we switch. Never had an issue.

I also don't have a problem tossing somebody at the table if they are not doing their jobs. I figure if the kids are giving their best efforts, the officials are giving their best efforts, than the table can give their best efforts, too.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

*No, this wasn't a league game though being on a Sunday didn't have anything to do with that..

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, it appears we have a far more casual environment than your typical league game. If so, that makes this whole story very easy to believe.

I've run into this situation once, Y league, my rookie year. Coach A requests and is granted a time out. Coach B claims that time out is excessive. I go to the table, and the scorekeeper tells me, "I think it is too many." However, since the scorekeeper didn't keep a written log, I penalized nothing. I haven't seen this issue since.

We're taught to trust our partners. I believe that extends to the table, too. Besides, no-one blames the table when we kick a call, so no-one can blame the R and Us when there's a book error. It cuts both ways.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

...so no-one can blame the R and Us when there's a book error. It cuts both ways.

But they absolutely do!