You keep track of timeouts how?

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I have the crew track as best we can in the following manner:
3-person: R tracks all four of the 30s. U1 tracks the culls for the home team. U2 tracks the fulls for the visiting team.
2-person: R tracks all four 30s. U tracks the visiting team's three fulls for sure, and perhaps the fulls for the home, if he can. If not let the table handle the fulls for the home. If they get screwed, it's their table. I'm going to make certain though that the visiting team gets a fair shake.

Unless, our crew has definite knowledge otherwise, we are going with what is recorded in the book. The scorer should be noting the time and type of TO taken when it is granted.

Maybe it's just me but it seems that adds unnecessary confusion.

I've never thought it to be necessary to make sure the scorer will be tracking timeouts, but perhaps I'll start doing that.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bas2456

Maybe it's just me but it seems that adds unnecessary confusion.

I've never thought it to be necessary to make sure the scorer will be tracking timeouts, but perhaps I'll start doing that.

It is unnecessary until you find yourself in the middle of a big mess because there is a dispute over either a final time-out or an excessive time-out with 12 seconds left in the 4th quarter of a tied playoff game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is unnecessary until you find yourself in the middle of a big mess because there is a dispute over either a final time-out or an excessive time-out with 12 seconds left in the 4th quarter of a tied playoff game.

The table is keeping track of timeouts. The teams are keeping track of timeouts (especially during tournaments), I do not see much reason to give checks and balances by what we as a crew keep track of during the game. If there is a dispute, that is why there is an official book and the teams should already know what their situation is before they request one. But if it works for you, more power to you. I just will not be worrying that much about it.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is unnecessary until you find yourself in the middle of a big mess because there is a dispute over either a final time-out or an excessive time-out with 12 seconds left in the 4th quarter of a tied playoff game.

And if you say one thing, and the scorer says another, it's still a mess.

[bas2456]

It's plainly listed in the Scorers' Duties section of Rule 2. I'll let them do their job. I've got enough to worry about.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is unnecessary until you find yourself in the middle of a big mess because there is a dispute over either a final time-out or an excessive time-out with 12 seconds left in the 4th quarter of a tied playoff game.

It's great if you can do it but there's only so much room in my brain...the score keepers are supposed to confer regularly. I know the places where the table is suspect. When I'm there I will tell the visitor's scorekeeper to stay on top of things. Check score, fouls etc to make sure everything is the same. If there's a problem let me know soon. I've never had an error on the number of timeouts.

[JetMetFan]

To answer the various questions that have arisen (and some that haven't)...

*No, this wasn't a league game though being on a Sunday didn't have anything to do with that.
*It was an 8-team tournament (NYC Public Schools vs. NYC Catholic Schools)
*The scorekeeper was the only scorekeeper at the table so he was it. I've been involved with similar situations with a single scorekeeper at the table and that person always had sense enough to keep track of timeouts by writing them down.

One other thing...

*Regarding the "dereliction of duty" comment: While I always speak with the scorers and timers before a game in 20+ years it never occurred to me to ask a scorekeeper - who has a book sitting in front of them with a spot marked "timeouts" - whether they were writing them down. My R has 30 years in and I'm sure it never occurred to him, either.
*I don't have my rule book on me since I'm at work so...please find the rule citation that says we have to make sure the official scorer SHALL performer his/her duties.
*The R designates the official scorer, etc. and according to the NF manual the R confers with the scorer and timer before the game regarding their responsibilities. Again, if I'm the R and I ask a kid about keeping track of timeouts during the game never in 100 years would it occur to me that the kid wouldn't think writing them down in the scorebook - since they're writing everything else down in the scorebook - wouldn't be a fairly reasonable plan of action.

One "other" other thing...

*My game was the second of the four-game set. The scorer was the same person in game #1. Presumably he was keeping the info in his head during that game and it never became an issue. The only reason we even found out what was happening is he said it to a HC in my game. We alerted the crew in game #3 that it might want to ask the kid to put pencil to paper on timeouts as well as fouls and the score.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

*The scorekeeper was the only scorekeeper at the table so he was it. I've been involved with similar situations with a single scorekeeper at the table and that person always had sense enough to keep track of timeouts by writing them down.

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

As I mentioned in the OP, the team was keeping track but the HC was concerned when his assistant's total didn't match what the scorer told him. That triggered the whole conversation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

And these stats people on the bench have what authority in the game? I'm shocked that you would even consider listening to them!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And these stats people on the bench have what authority in the game? I'm shocked that you would even consider listening to them!

I did not say anything about having authority. But if I am keeping track of my timeouts that I call, I can raise a reasonable issue to tell the table and the officials there is a mistake. It is not the first time a table has screwed up and will not be the last. So yes if I have information that can get the situation right, I will use them. Not all the time is the table associated with the teams. I have had even the team that would benefit give the right information so that they do not benefit from an known mistake. But that is a lot better than you relying on the officials that do not carry around a pen and pad to know the timeout situation. Officials get it wrong when they switch whistles in their pocket and you expect officials off of memory with all the things going around to be a reliable source? I am a football official and we at least are supposed to write down the timeout situation on a card used by everyone. Never seen such a suggestion for basketball officials.

Peace

[SCalScoreKeeper]

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

*No, this wasn't a league game though being on a Sunday didn't have anything to do with that..

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, it appears we have a far more casual environment than your typical league game. If so, that makes this whole story very easy to believe.

I've run into this situation once, Y league, my rookie year. Coach A requests and is granted a time out. Coach B claims that time out is excessive. I go to the table, and the scorekeeper tells me, "I think it is too many." However, since the scorekeeper didn't keep a written log, I penalized nothing. I haven't seen this issue since.

We're taught to trust our partners. I believe that extends to the table, too. Besides, no-one blames the table when we kick a call, so no-one can blame the R and Us when there's a book error. It cuts both ways.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

...so no-one can blame the R and Us when there's a book error. It cuts both ways.

But they absolutely do!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But they absolutely do!

If we worried about what we could get blamed for, we'd never get anything done on the court.