10-sec backcourt play
 

This scenario was presented by the NCAAW SRE during our meeting Sunday...

*A1 is dribbling in her backcourt
*A1 throws a pass that is deflected by B1
*The ball bounces in the backcourt near the point where the division line intersects with the sideline
*The ball then lands OOB next to a frontcourt boundary (i.e., it counced forward and diagonally). The T official's 10-second count was at 8
*The ensuing throw-in goes directly into the backcourt and a player from Team A is the first to legally touch the ball

How much time will Team A have to advance the ball into the frontcourt?

Different play. There's no touch by a second player from Team A in this OP.

Guess that's why we get paid the big bucks. Whether 2 or 10, be able to explain your decision. If the NCAA-W has an interpretation then it should be really easy to proceed.

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re-start the count, they ought to have a fresh 10 seconds to advance the ball.

Well, the ball never had FC status, so, by my recollection of the rule (I don't have the books handy) it's 2 seconds.

Whether that's what the rules committee wanted or not ...

2 seconds because the ball never gained front court status. If the ball hit the front court and then went out, then a new 10 seconds. Really going to have make sure all are aware of what is happened and what is about to happen on a play like that.

Yup...my bad :o

I think by a strict reading of the rule, Team A should have only two seconds to advance.

Do you have a rules based reason for that or just because you think that's what is fair.

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And the interpretation is...

Team A would have 2 seconds to advance into the frontcourt because, as Bob and APG said, the ball never gained frontcourt status.

+1

Confirming our previous answers:

QUESTION:

Concerning the 10 second back court count. With 23 seconds on the shot clock team A is in control of the basketball in their backcourt. A pass is deflected by the defense in the backcourt. The ball travels toward the frontcourt and A.) goes out of bounds on the frontcourt sideline with out touching the front court or B.) touches the frontcourt before going directly out of bounds. Does team A receive a new 10 second count in either case.

ANSWER:

The intent of the rule change in 9-10 is to not provide the team in control with a new ten seconds in the backcourt when there is a new throw-in after the defense caused the ball to go out of bounds, a held ball with no change in team control or a technical foul assessed to the team in control and the team in control had failed to gain frontcourt status by the tenth second. In (a), because the defense caused the ball to go out of bounds and the ball did not gain frontcourt status, if Team A’s throw-in goes into the backcourt, Team A will have three seconds to advance the ball into the frontcourt. In (b), because the ball touched the frontcourt, it gained frontcourt status (Rule 9-12.3.a) before going out of bounds. If Team A’s throw-in goes into the backcourt, Team A will receive a new ten seconds to advance the ball into their frontcourt.

There is no frontcourt or backcourt status during a throw-in. It will be important for officials to discuss this scenario.

Had this come up in one of our meetings: In scenario (a) after the ball goes out of bounds can team A "buy" a new 10 second count with a time out? (Answer to follow)...

Yes.

A time out granted to a team in its backcourt always results in a new ten-second count.

There's no foolin' you sharpies...

What if the defense calls the timeout?

Does the rule say "time out" or "offensive time out"?"

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No.

Well, unless the offense calls a subsequent one.

Of course, there's another layer of intrigue if the time out is granted with 0:59.9 or less in the 4th quarter or overtime.

All of this is going to be a thrill for my GV games in NY. The state is still deciding how many of the rule changes to adopt (I've been told the goal is to bring in as many as possible).

Yep.

And in your OP (defense tips the ball, it goes OOB adjacent to the FC) -- can the offense choose to "advance" the ball?

The rule says "out of bounds IN the backcourt" -- and that's a contradiction -- the throw-in is neither in the FC or in the BC.

BTW, if you see Jon at / before your meeting in Philly, tell him he did a great job with his "layered plays" breakout

I have no idea, so I'm asking, but I thought the ball could only be advanced immediately after a change of possession--made basket, rebound, steal, turnover?

I *think* that if B fouls or commits a floor violation, that A again has the option to advance (by taking a TO).

I'm thinking Jon may change the wording in the book. Towards the end of the summer he was phrasing this as "OOB on a boundary bordering the backcourt."



a. the ball is out of bounds (at a boundary bordering) the backcourt, except for the correction of a timing or scoring mistake, an inadvertent whistle, a held ball, a technical foul assessed to the team in control, or an injury, blood situation or a lost or displaced lens after the team has advanced the ball, or
b. after securing the ball from a rebound in the backcourt and before any advance of the ball, or
c. after the offensive team secures control of the ball from a change of possession and before any advance of the ball

Advance of the ball = The player in control does anything with the ball other than hold it.

What Bob mentioned comes under Category A since the ball would be awarded to Team A OOB.


He lives for those things :)

That would help. He does a good job with his writing, but this rule could be more clear, imo (too many "ands" and "ors", part (a) contains 5 exceptions, and someone is going to be confused on whether the "has advanced" clause applies to all the exceptions or only to the injury/blood/contact exception)

Maybe I wrote it wrong in my notes (entirely possible but the person sitting next to me wrote the same thing), but I wrote "Timeout, either team, new 10). Like I said maybe I wrote it wrong, heard Jon wrong, etc.

You wrote it wrong :D

All the slides I've seen say offensive time-out resets the count.

That is what I thought but I just sent the question into Jon just to make sure. :D

I think we all agree now that in the play above, the answer is "2 seconds."

But, what if the throw-in (from adjacent to the FC), is a "bounce pass" that first hits the floor in the FC? Does that give A a new 10-seconds?

What if the ball is touched / tipped (not controlled) by A2 in the FC and deflects to the BC where it is recovered?

This would be why there's an "Ask Jon" section on the hub :D

Since there is no true TC during a throw-in, I say the ball does not have FC status in either scenario.

sure -- but I thought we might get some discussion here, first (unless it's been posted there and I missed it)

What is "true TC?"

The rule says a player and his team can't be in continuous control of a BALL that is in his backcourt for 10 continuous seconds…don't reset if defense knocks it out of bounds.

On your throw in, the moment the BALL hits the FC or touches a player in the FC, IT, the BALL, has FC status. Team A can't be in continuous control of a ball in the BC for 10 seconds because the ball was IN FC. new count..

As in if A1 is inbounds (regardless of location) and throws a pass that A2 touches in the FC and then Team A retrieves it in the BC, it's a violation.

Agreed -- but the question is about a 10-second violation, not a BC violation. I think we all agree that the play I posted is NOT a BC violation.

If A1 is in the BC and throws a pass that touches the FC and spins back into the BC and A2 retrieves it, we don't have a BC violation?

What element of BC violation are we missing?

Sorry -- yes. You caught me trying to edit my post with the play. I am dealing via email with a different play and I got the two confused as I was typing.

In my brain, I'm trying to keep the logic similar where possible.

I do not think throwing a bounce pass on a throw-in that hits the FC is intended by rule to give the ball FC status.

Ball location is in my view independent of team control etc. The ball is located wherever it is at that moment in time. If it hits in the FC it is in the FC..

I'll look at it as the ball doesn't have a location until the throw-in has ended.

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I could see an interpretation saying count continues based on this...

Here's Jon's answer (and there are a couple of other plays he uses that illustrate the same thing):

DATE:

11/3/2015

RULE:

9-10, 9-12

QUESTION:

If the throw-in is from the frontcourt, but has not touched the court or a player in the frontcourt, is it a new 10 seconds if: 1) Thrower in A1 throws a bounce pass from the frontcourt, which bounces in the frontcourt, but is first touched by a player in the backcourt; 2) Thrower in A1 throws a bounce pass from the frontcourt, which bounces in the frontcourt and is then deflected by A2 or B2, either of whom is standing in the frontcourt, and then goes into the backcourt 3) Thrower in A1 throws a chest pass which is deflected by B1, who is standing in the frontcourt, and the ball then goes in to the backcourt?

ANSWER:

In all three scenarios you present, if Team A’s pass is deflected out of bounds without touching the playing court or a player/official int he frontcourt and Team’s ensuing throw-in were to be thrown directly into Team A’s backcourt, Team A then has the remaining time in the backcourt count to advance the ball into their frontcourt.

In your three scenarios (A1’s throw-in touches the playing court in the frontcourt before going into the backcourt, A1’s bounce pass in the frontcourt is deflected by A1 or B2 into Team A’s backcourt or A1’s throw-in is deflected in flight by B2 into Team A’s backcourt), Team A will receive a new 10 seconds to advance the ball once it is touched in the backcourt, because in all three examples you provided frontcourt status has been established. Additionally, if A1’s throw-in were deflected by A2 into their backcourt, this is legal and not a backcourt violation s Team A did not have team control int heir frontcourt before the ball was returned to their backcourt (Rule 9-12.4).

Makes sense based on the rules as they're written.

Absolutely. (But of course I say that since I argued in favor of this position at a pre-game (scrimmage) discussion with four other officials the other night. Had I taken the other position, I'm *sure* I'd find his reasoning to be flawed. )