Notes from a recent ref clinic

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Seriously, that's the way they're going to introduce it? Use the old time standard that the NCAA used and abandoned years ago? Stupid. Just go with 30. How many HS offenses do you know that take 45 seconds to operate? I mean why even bother?

It isn't that good offenses take 45 seconds to operate. It is that some teams will not be able to get much going in 20 or 25. I don't think they want to create any more of a turnover-fest in those games than they already are.

Assuming it is true, it would seem they want to establish an upper limit to eliminate pure stall games where teams try to hold the ball for 2, 3, 4, or even more minutes. It wouldn't be so much about increasing the pace of play in the average game as the NBA and NCAA wish to do but prevent the nearly complete cessation of play in the few games that suffer from such play styles.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...Assuming it is true, it would seem they want to establish an upper limit to eliminate pure stall games where teams try to hold the ball for 2, 3, 4, or even more minutes. It wouldn't be so much about increasing the pace of play in the average game as the NBA and NCAA wish to do but prevent the nearly complete cessation of play in the few games that suffer from such play styles.

I still contend this is a solution in search of a problem. How many of these games have any of us encountered? I have seen it maybe twice in 15 years. Where is it occurring in such great numbers that a major national rule change has to be implemented?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I still contend this is a solution in search of a problem. How many of these games have any of us encountered? I have seen it maybe twice in 15 years. Where is it occurring in such great numbers that a major national rule change has to be implemented?

It occurs a few times a year. Perhaps most prominently was the Oregon Girls 5A championship game in 2012. 4-0 at half and 16-7 at the end. It was not because they missed a lot of shots. It was because they didn't take a lot of shots. They are essentially scared of Mercedes Russell (Mercedes Russell Bio - University of Tennessee Official Athletic Site) and decided this was the only chance they had to beat her. It was an absolutely horrible game to watch and I'm sure the players really hated it to. Imagine making it to a state championship final and spending it standing around for 30 minutes. What kind of memories are those? Maybe if they'd won, but that was still a long shot.

Box Score: Oregon & Portland High School Girls Basketball - OregonLive.com

[bballref3966]

The solution for defending against a team that plays stall ball is simple: stop sitting back and come out to force a closely guarded count.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The solution for defending against a team that plays stall ball is simple: stop sitting back and come out to force a closely guarded count.

Why should they? The defending team might be happy with the other team not even trying to score. Isn't defense's primary goal to prevent the other team from scoring?

In the case of the Oregon game I referred to, the defending team was ahead and were probably going to win no matter how the game was played since they had a player the other team just couldn't match up with. They didn't need possession. If there were to dramatically spread out trying to cover the ball at the division line, that could give the other team the lucky opportunity they wanted.

I'm not a huge fan of a shot clock for HS, but if anything is to be done to prevent multi-minute stalls, it has to be a shot clock.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I still contend this is a solution in search of a problem. How many of these games have any of us encountered? I have seen it maybe twice in 15 years. Where is it occurring in such great numbers that a major national rule change has to be implemented?

Agreed, completely. Camron noted it happens a few times a year. That's nationwide, not for each official. A few times per year, across the nation, does not warrant such a major rule change.

[Pantherdreams]

The games that are all out stalls may only happen a couple of times a year or may only be published when its a dramatic less then 10 pts combined scored.

I can tell you when I worked games in Maine that all out stall wasn't common, but if you had foul trouble in the 2nd quarter, or the other team wanted to pack/play zone, or it was the fourth quarter and you were up 6+ there might not have been an all out stall but there is a lot of pull back out, keep reversing the ball, etc. In those situations its basically standard practice to make sure possessions are taking 60-90-120 seconds of offense.

The all out stalls might be rare but how teams play/try to score is definitely impacted in almost every game I officiated (without a shot clock) by situations that went from teams actively trying to compete and give kids chances to make play to totally coach controlled and tactics that led to really really long possessions.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Agreed, completely. Camron noted it happens a few times a year. That's nationwide, not for each official. A few times per year, across the nation, does not warrant such a major rule change.

Except that it gets a whole bunch of press, so it seems that something must be done.

bah!