Video Breakdown and Analysis (Video)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... If, however, it was "excessive" contact, otherwise known as rough play, we'd still call a foul on it.

Are you suggesting charging an intentional foul under such circumstances?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Are you suggesting charging an intentional foul under such circumstances?

No. That is why I used quotes around the word. Sometimes, contact is enough that you just need a foul on it even if it really isn't part of the play. But, it can be short of an intentional foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. That is why I used quotes around the word. Sometimes, contact is enough that you just need a foul on it even if it really isn't part of the play. But, it can be short of an intentional foul.

Sounds good. Sorry, I missed the quotes the first time around.

Note: Now may be a good time to remind Forum members that this past season, the NFHS changed the definition of an intentional l foul to include both on-the-ball, and off-the-ball fouls.

[deecee]

In the cases of screen it may not be for a few seconds afterwards that the impact of said screen is noticed. So while I get the logic of the screen happened on the other side of the lane, and that it wasn't in the immediate vicinity of the ball I do not subscribe to passing on illegal contact for these reasons. You aren't going to call the foul only IF the team gets an advantage because that may not be obvious until a few seconds after the initial act.

Sometimes illegal activity needs to be called at the point, especially fouls away from the ball. That's the whole point of off ball officiating.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

In the cases of screen it may not be for a few seconds afterwards that the impact of said screen is noticed. So while I get the logic of the screen happened on the other side of the lane, and that it wasn't in the immediate vicinity of the ball I do not subscribe to passing on illegal contact for these reasons. You aren't going to call the foul only IF the team gets an advantage because that may not be obvious until a few seconds after the initial act.

Sometimes illegal activity needs to be called at the point, especially fouls away from the ball. That's the whole point of off ball officiating.

I disagree. You may need to be patient and have a bigger view but you don't have to call everything that happens off-ball that my develop into an advantage. Sometime, players just clumsily collide. Sometimes they do something technically against the rules, but the whole point of all officiating, off-ball or on-ball, is to judge whether the contact matters or not.

[JetMetFan]

But, and I agree with deecee on this, you may not know whether it "matters" at the moment it took place.

Take the play in the OP. Some have said illegal, some have said play on. Off of the screening activity B#21 ends up in an advantageous position: He's in the middle of the lane with inside position on the closest defender. The thrower didn't give him the ball because there was another defender in the way. Now, suppose the defender guarding the thrower was shading towards his - the defender's - left instead of the right? B#21 probably gets the ball and has a good scoring chance. It's going to be tough to put a whistle on an illegal screen at that point.

We can also look at the play the way it took place, but with a twist. B#21 winds up in an advantageous position but the ball goes to B#3 outside the 3-point arc. If B#3 catches the pass cleanly there's a chance he attempts a 3-point shot. If he shoots, B#21 has inside position for rebounding. Again, we can't always immediately know the ramifications of potentially illegal contact especially when it's off-ball contact.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

But, and I agree with deecee on this, you may not know whether it "matters" at the moment it took place.

Take the play in the OP. Some have said illegal, some have said play on. Off of the screening activity B#21 ends up in an advantageous position: He's in the middle of the lane with inside position on the closest defender. The thrower didn't give him the ball because there was another defender in the way. Now, suppose the defender guarding the thrower was shading towards his - the defender's - left instead of the right? B#21 probably gets the ball and has a good scoring chance. It's going to be tough to put a whistle on an illegal screen at that point.

We can also look at the play the way it took place, but with a twist. B#21 winds up in an advantageous position but the ball goes to B#3 outside the 3-point arc. If B#3 catches the pass cleanly there's a chance he attempts a 3-point shot. If he shoots, B#21 has inside position for rebounding. Again, we can't always immediately know the ramifications of potentially illegal contact especially when it's off-ball contact.

By that line of reasoning, there is no such thing as incidental contact away from the ball (or even perhaps on the ball) since you can't know how the subsequent events will unfold. Any bump, push, hold, etc. would need to be called.

Sometimes, if the advantage takes too long to develop, you just get it wrong. I consider that better than calling fouls on situations that rarely lead to an actual advantage just because there was contact that could be an advantage in a few cases.