Fielder's balk?

[drumsub]

@umpjim, all baseball rulebooks derived from MLB. They've undergone changes since the first writing, and of course there are differences, but you can still see parts that are the same wording, or organized the same way. Maybe there's a league out there other than MLB that sat down and wrote a rule book from scratch, but I've seen no evidence of that.

And I'm saying it's debated and misapplied in youth leagues all over the US. That's obvious from the existence of threads like this one.

My point is that due to all the derivative rule books out there you've got various iterations of the rule with different wording, indentations, etc. It doesn't matter what X's interpretation guide says to someone in Y league, and the existence of that interp guide probably isn't known to that person. My point is that the confusion could have been put to rest by MLB addressing it as they do so many other rules via a short note in the rule book way back when.

I remember this thing sparked in the 80's because Keith Hernandez had it called on him and then every ump in my area was calling it because they saw it in an MLB game (or so the rumor went, I didn't actually see it myself, but as a young umpire I believed what the older guys taught). So there has obviously been confusion over the years.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by drumsub

@umpjim, all baseball rulebooks derived from MLB. They've undergone changes since the first writing, and of course there are differences, but you can still see parts that are the same wording, or organized the same way. Maybe there's a league out there other than MLB that sat down and wrote a rule book from scratch, but I've seen no evidence of that.

And I'm saying it's debated and misapplied in youth leagues all over the US. That's obvious from the existence of threads like this one.

My point is that due to all the derivative rule books out there you've got various iterations of the rule with different wording, indentations, etc. It doesn't matter what X's interpretation guide says to someone in Y league, and the existence of that interp guide probably isn't known to that person. My point is that the confusion could have been put to rest by MLB addressing it as they do so many other rules via a short note in the rule book way back when.

I remember this thing sparked in the 80's because Keith Hernandez had it called on him and then every ump in my area was calling it because they saw it in an MLB game (or so the rumor went, I didn't actually see it myself, but as a young umpire I believed what the older guys taught). So there has obviously been confusion over the years.

No OBR rule version/derivative I have ever seen has a penalty listed for not being fair - therefore it isn't a balk.

No OBR rule version/derivative I have ever seen has it listed in 8.05 as a balk, therefore it isn't one.

[DG]

Interestingly enough, the FED rule book says you can start the game when infielders, pitcher and catcher are in position. I missed this question once, obviously a trick and clearly conflicts with rule about starting with 9 players unless one assumes that 3 of them are on the bench.

I expect the FED rule book evolved from the OBR rule book since I expect they were playing pro ball before high schools took up the sport or before high schools were considered high schools. But there are many differences in the rule sets just like there are differences in language and dialects.

Suffice it to finalize by saying I have never been looking at F9 when I am set for a pitch behind the plate, or when I am BU so this is surely a third world play situation. I think I sense an OOO who would even entertain a balk in this situation.

[drumsub]

Rich - and yet here this discussion is because someone read it that way at some point and it has proliferated for decades. I'm surprised this one didn't make the top 40 myths list.

[MD Longhorn]

Because it's not really a myth. It's a rule - but a rule that should never come into play if we are doing our jobs properly.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Because it's not really a myth. It's a rule - but a rule that should never come into play if we are doing our jobs properly.

What rule? If you mean it's a balk:

It certainly is NOT a rule in OBR.

It is a rule that should be headed off in FED.

[drumsub]

It was when Hernandez was with the Cardinals, so it wouldn't have been the Gooden call.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by drumsub

@umpjim, all baseball rulebooks derived from MLB. They've undergone changes since the first writing, and of course there are differences, but you can still see parts that are the same wording, or organized the same way. Maybe there's a league out there other than MLB that sat down and wrote a rule book from scratch, but I've seen no evidence of that.

And I'm saying it's debated and misapplied in youth leagues all over the US. That's obvious from the existence of threads like this one.

My point is that due to all the derivative rule books out there you've got various iterations of the rule with different wording, indentations, etc. It doesn't matter what X's interpretation guide says to someone in Y league, and the existence of that interp guide probably isn't known to that person. My point is that the confusion could have been put to rest by MLB addressing it as they do so many other rules via a short note in the rule book way back when.

I remember this thing sparked in the 80's because Keith Hernandez had it called on him and then every ump in my area was calling it because they saw it in an MLB game (or so the rumor went, I didn't actually see it myself, but as a young umpire I believed what the older guys taught). So there has obviously been confusion over the years.

A google search shows Keith Hernandez caused Dwight Gooden to be balked for a start and stop when Hernandez yelled "step off" too late. Maybe Hernandez was outside fair, no one complaining and not called, but maybe your old timers did not have sound on their TVs or the announcers were as clueless as some of today's.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by drumsub

@umpjim, all baseball rulebooks derived from MLB. They've undergone changes since the first writing, and of course there are differences, but you can still see parts that are the same wording, or organized the same way. Maybe there's a league out there other than MLB that sat down and wrote a rule book from scratch, but I've seen no evidence of that.

And I'm saying it's debated and misapplied in youth leagues all over the US. That's obvious from the existence of threads like this one.

My point is that due to all the derivative rule books out there you've got various iterations of the rule with different wording, indentations, etc. It doesn't matter what X's interpretation guide says to someone in Y league, and the existence of that interp guide probably isn't known to that person. My point is that the confusion could have been put to rest by MLB addressing it as they do so many other rules via a short note in the rule book way back when.

I remember this thing sparked in the 80's because Keith Hernandez had it called on him and then every ump in my area was calling it because they saw it in an MLB game (or so the rumor went, I didn't actually see it myself, but as a young umpire I believed what the older guys taught). So there has obviously been confusion over the years.

Believing what the older guys taught was how it worked back then. Not many paid for a rulebook and it was word of mouth perpetration of the myths.