Visits to pitcher, playing pro rules

[Brblueump44]

Team A turns in line up card with a "straight 9". Team A makes 2nd visit to starting pitcher in same inning. At that point team A manager wants to make a position swap with the pitcher and right fielder allowing starting pitcher to remain in the game and bring the right fielder in to pitch. Official rules of baseball states the pitcher must be removed from the game.

Is the starting pitcher allowed to stay in the game as a position player or is the rule in ORB mean he is no longer eligible to play in that game period?

We ruled the pitcher out of the game per ORB.

[bob jenkins]

If you follow strict OBR, the pitcher is out of the game.

Most organizations either explicitly or implicitly allow the old F1 to remain in the game, but he cannot return to pitch.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Brblueump44

Team A turns in line up card with a "straight 9". Team A makes 2nd visit to starting pitcher in same inning. At that point team A manager wants to make a position swap with the pitcher and right fielder allowing starting pitcher to remain in the game and bring the right fielder in to pitch. Official rules of baseball states the pitcher must be removed from the game.

Is the starting pitcher allowed to stay in the game as a position player or is the rule in ORB mean he is no longer eligible to play in that game period?

We ruled the pitcher out of the game per ORB.

This is why you should know the rules of the league you are umpiring for. As Brblueump44 stated, many amateur leagues allow the pitcher to remain in the game, just not pitch.

So seeing only 9 in the lineup and no subs, that might just tell you that this league does not adhere to strict OBR rules. I'll bet that you were incorrect in ruling the pitcher out of the game according to this league.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

So seeing only 9 in the lineup and no subs, that might just tell you that this league does not adhere to strict OBR rules. I'll bet that you were incorrect in ruling the pitcher out of the game according to this league.

I read "straight 9" as meaning they were not using a DH for the pitcher, which sounds like an option with this league (I do a lot of softball, which uses the DP/FLEX option; when a coach opts not to go with that option, we normally call it a "straight 9").

So I agree that the league may not go with strict OBR, because there would be no option to go with either a "straight 9" or a DH. It would have to be one or the other.

[Brblueump44]

They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I read "straight 9" as meaning they were not using a DH for the pitcher, which sounds like an option with this league (I do a lot of softball, which uses the DP/FLEX option; when a coach opts not to go with that option, we normally call it a "straight 9").

So I agree that the league may not go with strict OBR, because there would be no option to go with either a "straight 9" or a DH. It would have to be one or the other.

6.10(b) does not require a DH. You can play straight 9 or 10 w/DH.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Brblueump44

They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.

If they wish to do it this way, the coach needs to come to YOU first and make the switch, before heading to the mound. The second he went to the mound first, pitcher was done for the day.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Brblueump44

They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.

I'll bet that this is what they say -- but that they never considered all the ramifications. And, I'll bet that if you asked, they would want the old pitcher to be able to stay in the game.

[DG]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If they wish to do it this way, the coach needs to come to YOU first and make the switch, before heading to the mound. The second he went to the mound first, pitcher was done for the day.

Are you saying you don't consider it a pitching change due to 2nd trip if HC comes to you first to announce the change?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DG

Are you saying you don't consider it a pitching change due to 2nd trip if HC comes to you first to announce the change?

It's a pitching change. But it's not a visit. F1 is not out of the game.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Brblueump44

They play strict American League rules .

No such thing. The rules are the same in both leagues. The DH is optional. The Al chooses to use it, the NL chooses to not use it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's a pitching change. But it's not a visit. F1 is not out of the game.

Do you have a reference? I was under the impression that this did constitute a visit -- but I'm away from my references at the moment.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

No such thing. The rules are the same in both leagues. The DH is optional. The Al chooses to use it, the NL chooses to not use it.

Allegedly knowledgeable umpires in my area finally wised up to this fact, but not before I won dozens of free beers.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Do you have a reference? I was under the impression that this did constitute a visit -- but I'm away from my references at the moment.

I, likewise, was under the impression that the manager should only do this verbally from the dugout.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Brblueump44

They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.

They may be old-timers who haven't kept up. It used to be a league difference--in the American League the pitcher was only required to be removed from the mound and was ineligible to pitch; the NL required removal from the game.

IIRC, the rule used to stipulate only the pitcher's "automatic removal." Now it says "automatic removal from the game."

Other differences were when a trip concluded (AL-manager crossed foul line; NL-when he left the mound and stepped on the grass); whether pitchers could wear golf gloves on their non-pitching hand (AL-no; NL-yes); and number of lineup copies to give to the umpire at the plate meeting (one league was 3, the other 4 but I don't recall which was which).

When doing "summer ball" you could use those differences to your advantage when some smart-aleck manager who said they were playing "National League rules" tried to show you up. They all thought it mean merely "no DH". That is, until they wanted to take clean-up and .490 hitter Johnny off the mound and stick him at short, as they'd been doing all year.

"Sorry, skip--National League rules."