Visits to pitcher, playing pro rules

[bob jenkins]

All I can find in a quick look is J/R:

It is a trip when the manager:

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

[CT1]

I've never umpired a summer league where they didn't allow a pitcher to remain in the game at a different position. He still can't return to pitch.

[Rita C]

Just to be clear: I understand that part of this is defining what is, or isn't, a visit.

But I don't think that some are understanding that a pitcher can move to another defensive position and return later that inning to the mound.

Rita

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Just to be clear: I understand that part of this is defining what is, or isn't, a visit.

But I don't think that some are understanding that a pitcher can move to another defensive position and return later that inning to the mound.

Rita

I don't see that being the salient issue here. The reason is that is moot if the pitcher has reached the limit of trips--he cannot pitch again that game. The question is whether he has to leave the game or not.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Matt

I don't see that being the salient issue here. The reason is that is moot if the pitcher has reached the limit of trips--he cannot pitch again that game. The question is whether he has to leave the game or not.

I think I noted I understood that. But some of the answers sounded like the pitcher had to be removed regardless.

Rita

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

All I can find in a quick look is J/R:

It is a trip when the manager:

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

Wendlestedt says a pitcher changed to another position by a manager from the dugout is not a trip, but there is no mention about situation where manager goes to PU to make the change without visiting the mound, but since he is not in the dugout when he goes to PU to make a change, I consider that a trip for purposes of the 2 trip rule.

It has never come up in any game I have been in, so is interesting situation, but I think coming out of the dugout twice in same inning to conference or change is 2 trips.

[johnnyg08]

We're over thinking this. Trip 1. "let's go throw strikes" walks next batter on 4 pitches.

Manager comes out. Trip 2. Removes Billy from pitching and puts him out in F8 and F8 comes to pitch.

It's the 2nd trip in an inning. For FED that 2nd trip isn't a charged conference b/c he removed Billy from pitching.

Am I missing something here?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

We're over thinking this. Trip 1. "let's go throw strikes" walks next batter on 4 pitches.

Manager comes out. Trip 2. Removes Billy from pitching and puts him out in F8 and F8 comes to pitch.
It's the 2nd trip in an inning. For FED that 2nd trip isn't a charged conference b/c he removed Billy from pitching.

Am I missing something here?

Under pure OBR, that isn't allowed. That was the OP's question.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

We're over thinking this. Trip 1. "let's go throw strikes" walks next batter on 4 pitches.

Manager comes out. Trip 2. Removes Billy from pitching and puts him out in F8 and F8 comes to pitch.

It's the 2nd trip in an inning. For FED that 2nd trip isn't a charged conference b/c he removed Billy from pitching.

Am I missing something here?

You're missing that this question was not just about OBR, but "strict OBR".

[stratref]

I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

This substitution is very similar to a double switch, and for strict OBR that makes it very simple. If the manager (having already made a trip) goes to the mound the pitcher must be removed from the game and a double switch cannot be made.

Therefore the pitcher could not do anything else, he must be removed from the game. However double switches are legal, to make one the manager must first go to the plate umpire and inform him of the substitution. He can then go to the mound without a trip being charged.

Thus getting back to the original situation, if a trip has already been made in the inning and the manager goes to the mound then the pitcher is done for the day, period. To do anything else the manager must go to the plate umpire first, and in doing so is not charged with a trip, even if after informing the plate umpire of the substitution he goes to the mound.

Jasper

[DG]

Originally Posted by stratref

Therefore the pitcher could not do anything else, he must be removed from the game. However double switches are legal, to make one the manager must first go to the plate umpire and inform him of the substitution. He can then go to the mound without a trip being charged.

Thus getting back to the original situation, if a trip has already been made in the inning and the manager goes to the mound then the pitcher is done for the day, period. To do anything else the manager must go to the plate umpire first, and in doing so is not charged with a trip, even if after informing the plate umpire of the substitution he goes to the mound.

Jasper

I am going to need a rules or interpretation reference for this. The original question was whether a team with 9 players could move the pitcher to another position if the change is made by going to the PU first, after having made a 1st trip earlier. Double switch can me made in the manner, but the pitcher can't move to another position because he is done.

One trip to the mound and then one trip to PU in the same inning to make a double switch is two trips in my view.

[stratref]

Originally Posted by DG

I am going to need a rules or interpretation reference for this. The original question was whether a team with 9 players could move the pitcher to another position if the change is made by going to the PU first, after having made a 1st trip earlier. Double switch can me made in the manner, but the pitcher can't move to another position because he is done.

One trip to the mound and then one trip to PU in the same inning to make a double switch is two trips in my view.

First am I correct that the rule in question is 8.06?

Originally Posted by OBR

8.06
A professional league shall adopt the following rule pertaining to the visit of the manager or coach to the pitcher:
(a) This rule limits the number of trips a manager or coach may make to any one pitcher in any one inning;
(b) A second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning will cause this pitcher's automatic removal from the game;
(c) & (d) [skipped, irrelevant]
A manager or coach is considered to have concluded his visit to the mound when he leaves the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's rubber.

Using the rule above especially the section following part d, it appears that a trip to a pitcher requires actually going to the pitcher, going to the plate umpire is not considered a trip.

For those that say it is, there is a comment to 8.06, a part of which is quoted below:

Originally Posted by OBR

A manager shall not be considered to have concluded his visit to the mound if he temporarily leaves the 18-foot circle surround the pitcher's rubber for purposes of notifying the umpire that a double-switch or substitution is being made.

If we think this through this is to mean that informing the umpire of a substitution is not the same thing as a visit. I really don't see how going to the umpire first (prior to going to the mound) can be considered a visit to the mound, the manager has done nothing that can be considered a visit. I would need a rule reference for someone to show me otherwise.
Rule 3.06 and its comment are the rules referencing how to make a substitution and the proper way to make a double-switch, I won't quite it here (If you need review, I gave you the rule number, Google it yourself)

I hope this clears up my view that going to the umpire is not considered a trip, and thus the substitution in question is legal, if not please give a specific reason and I will do some more research.

Jasper

[DG]

The only other reference I have found on this subject is in the BRD where an OFF INTERP is offered to CC by phone call in 2000 by FITZPATRICK (PBUC).

"The pitcher is removed from the game if the coach, conferring with the umpire, has already been once to the mound in that half inning."

[jicecone]

Stratref, I have to go along with DG here. Your rule references are correct however, you have drawn your own conclusion as to interpretation.

BRD discusses a coach making a pitcher change after three conferences, without going to the mound. Giving no other limitations on the pitcher, " the pitcher may return to the mound in that contest" (FED)

NCAA - if a coach goes to an umpire after a charged trip to the mound in one inning or " having been charged with three trips in a non-extra inning game" that shall constitute an excessive trip. " The pitcher may not return to the mound, even if he stays in the game.

OBR - "Point not covered and a official interpretation is offered as stated by DG. If taken literally, "the pitcher is removed from the game".