Weird play Blue Jays-Rangers

[Jay R]

Interesting play this afternoon. Mike Bordick on first, one out. Batter hits a line drive, ball hits the picher's butt and bounces directly to the Texas 3B for the 2nd out. Bordick is rounding 2nd when he realizes that he is going to be doubled off at first. But wait, the 3B throws the ball over the 1B's head and out of play. Bordick is awarded third on the wild throw.

But it's not over yet. Bordick is 2 steps past second base when he realizes what's going on. However, he does not return to tag up at first, instead he goes directly to third. There is along delay as the manager goes to the mound to check on his pitcher who was hit hard, he stays in the game.

When the ball is finally live again, the pitcher appeals to second base and Bordick is out. Toronto manager comes out to gripe, but what can you do if they did not know the rule. Obviously, the Texas manager knew the rule and told his pitcher to appeal.

[Rich]

He appealed to SECOND?

You're kidding, right? The appeal base is first.

Rich

[TriggerMN]

They did in fact appeal to 2nd base, and Bordick was called out.

Apparently years ago in the minor leagues, the Texas manager was managing a team that included both the Toronto manager and 3rd base coach as coaches, and the exact same scenario occurred. Showalter was coaching 3rd base, and told his runner to fake a steal of home. The pitcher then threw to third to try to get the runner, then appealed to 2nd, and was not allowed the appeal.

I found this strange because I thought that if the offense initiates a play, such as a fake steal of home, the defense still has the right to appeal. Maybe the rules have changed since then, though.

Also, I thought that the Bordick appeal should have been at 1st also. Once he's past 2nd base and the ball goes out of play, he's screwed because he cannot, by rule, go back to 1st base and tag up.

I had a lengthy discussion with some umpires in my association earlier this year about a similar "what if" play. What if the batter hits a ball deep in the gap, the runner on 1st has passed 2nd base when the center fielder catches it at the wall. CF sees where the runner is, and immediately throws the ball over the fence. Well, the batter is awarded home, but is out on appeal at 1st base.

[TwoBits]

In OBR, there is no mention that an appeal can still be accepted if a play occurs that the offense initiated. I do know that in FED rules, the appeal can still be granted if the offense initiates a play. However, with dead ball appeals being allowed in FED, why would anyone appeal during a live ball?

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
I found this strange because I thought that if the offense initiates a play, such as a fake steal of home, the defense still has the right to appeal.

Unless the play is part of continuous action, the appeal should be denied. The defense must appeal before any play that is not a part of continuous action.

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Once he's past 2nd base and the ball goes out of play, he's screwed because he cannot, by rule, go back to 1st base and tag up.

That is incorrect. Only runners who touch an advance base while the ball is dead cannot go back to correct the infraction. In the posted situation, Bordick was beyond second already when the ball entered dead ball territory. He could indeed properly retreat to correct his infraction.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by TwoBits
In OBR, there is no mention that an appeal can still be accepted if a play occurs that the offense initiated.

Right. But there is mention that an appeal is no longer viable. It's under the notes in 7.10.

Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play.

So, under OBR, the offense has a chance to bait the defense into attempting a play in order to negate an appeal. A wise defense will ignore the bait if the appeal is viable.

[greymule]

Once he's past 2nd base and the ball goes out of play, he's screwed because he cannot, by rule, go back to 1st base and tag up.

As Jim Porter noted, this is not true in OBR. As I remember, Fed does contain this restriction.

Jim: What constitutes a "play" if the offense tries to bait the defense into something that will nullify an appeal attempt? If the runner on 3B breaks for home and the pitcher fakes a throw or takes a couple of steps toward the runner, is the appeal nullified?

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by greymule
Jim: What constitutes a "play" if the offense tries to bait the defense into something that will nullify an appeal attempt? If the runner on 3B breaks for home and the pitcher fakes a throw or takes a couple of steps toward the runner, is the appeal nullified?

No, a fake throw or a few steps are not considered a play or attempted play. It's got to actually be a tag try or a throw.

[Rich]

Still, how can they appeal this at SECOND base? The return base was first.

Hey, they knew to appeal SOMETHING.

Rich

[TriggerMN]

Thank you to both of you for clarifying. I omitted that I was interpreting these rules with FED rulings...

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Still, how can they appeal this at SECOND base? The return base was first.

Hey, they knew to appeal SOMETHING.

Rich

Rich;

Since R1 had already passed second at the time of the award, he must retouch second and first before going to third. Since he went directly to third, the defense may appeal either base as a missed base.

He must also touch second after retouching first. Now we can get into "last time by" with regards to which touch at second they were appealing.

Peter

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness

Rich;

Since R1 had already passed second at the time of the award, he must retouch second and first before going to third. Since he went directly to third, the defense may appeal either base as a missed base.

He must also touch second after retouching first. Now we can get into "last time by" with regards to which touch at second they were appealing.

Peter

Good explanation. It's just hard to believe the players knew the rule. We have a couple of former MLB players coaching youth ball locally and their knowledge of the rules is amazingly minimal.

[greymule]

But the appeal was at 1B, not 2B. Yes, the runner had to return to 1B via 2B, but he had touched 2B legally. Had he missed 2B on the way to 3B as well as left 1B before the catch, then the defense could appeal either 2B as a miss or 1B as left too soon. According to the original post, there was no missed base involved.

Had the runner not retouched 2B on the way back to 1B, then the defense could have appealed 2B as a failure to retouch. I believe the umpires erred if they allowed an appeal at 2B. I'm sure others will weigh in on this soon.

Parallel example: Runner on 2B. Fly to center field wall. Runner leaves 2B too soon and scores. The appeal is at 2B, not 3B. You can't throw the ball to 3B and appeal that the runner did not retouch it.

Where in the book does it say that an intervening base can be tagged?

[Edited by greymule on Aug 11th, 2003 at 11:59 AM]

[tiger49]

Bordick was not passed 2nd by the time that the ball went DBA he was 3ft before the bag and had stopped thinking that the play would be made at 1st. upon seeing the overthrow he proceeded past 2nd and therefore could not return. Why they went to 2nd I don't know.

[Jim Porter]

Bordick was required to return to first in order to retouch. When returning, a runner is required to touch each base in order. Bordick failed to do that. Therefore, he missed second in his return to retouch first. That makes second perfectly viable for the appeal, I would think.

Even if Bordick touched second after the ball became dead, and even though by rule he could not return to correct his infraction, second is still one of the bases he needed to retouch. Whether by rule or by choice, Bordick did not properly retouch second as he was required to do.