Miami / St.Louis.....not a force at third

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The announcers were right - the tag on the BR was made with an empty glove. Therefore the batter wasn't out at the plate. There may have been a verbal by U1 that overrode the out signal.

U1 can verbally override PU/crew chief's out call during a live ball play? How do you figure?

B was out on the play at the plate (it looked to me that F2 initially had an empty glove on B, but then his right hand (with the ball) pushed onto the glove while the glove was still contacting B...but hard to tell).

CCS says that R2 was ruled out for abandonment...go figure.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bluehair

B was out on the play at the plate (it looked to me that F2 initially had an empty glove on B, but then his right hand (with the ball) pushed onto the glove while the glove was still contacting B...but hard to tell).

Even if you saw it correctly the B/R would not be out.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Even if you saw it correctly the B/R would not be out.

F2 has ball in rt hand inside of glove and tags R = out.
F2 has ball in rt hand contacting outside of glove and tags R, I still have an out.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bluehair

F2 has ball in rt hand inside of glove and tags R = out.
F2 has ball in rt hand contacting outside of glove and tags R, I still have an out.

There is no "electricity" on the tag of a runner. The ball must be securely held by the hand or glove that tags the runner.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

There is no "electricity" on the tag of a runner. The ball must be securely held by the hand or glove that tags the runner.

So, F2 has ball in rt hand inside of glove then tags R with glove is not out? Good luck with that....good luck with either no tag call.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bluehair

So, F2 has ball in rt hand inside of glove then tags R with glove is not out? Good luck with that....good luck with either no tag call.

That is an out. This is what you described in an earlier post:

" it looked to me that F2 initially had an empty glove on B, but then his right hand (with the ball) pushed onto the glove while the glove was still contacting B.."

That is not a tag.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

That is an out.

Why is that an out? The ball is in the rt hand, and the tag is made with the left/gloved hand. I can only assume that you consider the ball in both hands (even though it isn't) and eligible for a tag.

IMO, the ball in the right hand pressed/trapped on the outside of the glove (instead of the inside) is the same. Either by rule or by practicality.

[CT1]

Let's assume U3 realizes that B1 is out and makes no call because F5 doesn't attempt to tag R2. It's apparent that R2, believing he was out on a force, would still have headed for his dugout. Thus, he's now out for abandonment.

Right result, wrong mechanics.

[bluehair]

A good look at tag/no tag play at HP can be seen at 1:01 of this replay. If you're calling no tag on that, good luck.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

There is no "electricity" on the tag of a runner. The ball must be securely held by the hand or glove that tags the runner.

The last time "electricity" counted was in baserunners or tag in my neighbors backyard about 39.years ago......

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bluehair

F2 has ball in rt hand inside of glove and tags R = out.
F2 has ball in rt hand contacting outside of glove and tags R, I still have an out.

Wow... I sure hope not.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Wow... I sure hope not.

When I'm taking a rules test or playing rules gotcha with internet umpires, no.
When I'm talking practicality and I see a two-handed tag like in this play, you betcha.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bluehair

When I'm taking a rules test or playing rules gotcha with internet umpires, no.
When I'm talking practicality and I see a two-handed tag like in this play, you betcha.

That's really too bad. Making an incorrect call on purpose solely because no one else would notice doesn't make it any less incorrect. If it's wrong on a rules test, it's wrong on the field.

[bluehair]

What would really be too bad would be the ire incurred by the umpire crew (from both teams) if my partner OOO'd a safe call on a two-handed tag like this. YMMV

[D Ray]

Originally Posted by bluehair

U1 can verbally override PU/crew chief's out call during a live ball play? How do you figure?

B was out on the play at the plate (it looked to me that F2 initially had an empty glove on B, but then his right hand (with the ball) pushed onto the glove while the glove was still contacting B...but hard to tell).

CCS says that R2 was ruled out for abandonment...go figure.

There is another clip on MLB that provides a great angle (same link as the one in post #25 above)

Video | MLB.com Multimedia

Near the end (2:29 mark), it appears as though F2 uses his forearm to bump/nudge BR out of the space in order to execute a throw to third, but does NOT tag BR. PU does come out with a fair ball point, he then signals with a fist giving the world to impression an out call has been made, yet for some reason, AFTER that, BR jogs to first. Personally, I and every umpire I know has an accompanying verbal sound to go with every out call. The video leads me to believe there was no sound from PU, and the BR, came to the conclusion that he was not tagged. This out signal, was either not seen or ignored by U3 and U1.

It would be interesting if the crew or MLB gave an explanation of what was called. At least the NFL and now NCAA football have the crew chief explain what was called. This is one time I wish MLB had a similar mechanic.