Substitution question

[Jay R]

(OBR) R2 and the DH is at bat. The coach comes to me and asks to make the following substitution. He wants to put the pitcher in to pinch run for R2. He calls it a double switch: he says his pitcher will become CF when they go out on the field again, the DH will become the pitcher.

I did not allow this substitution on the basis that the pitcher should pinch hit (or pinch run) only for the DH.

Was I correct?

Another question that came up in discussions after the game. Can a double switch be made on offense as well as defense?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jay R
(OBR) R2 and the DH is at bat. The coach comes to me and asks to make the following substitution. He wants to put the pitcher in to pinch run for R2. He calls it a double switch: he says his pitcher will become CF when they go out on the field again, the DH will become the pitcher.

I did not allow this substitution on the basis that the pitcher should pinch hit (or pinch run) only for the DH.

Was I correct?

Yes, by most interps. The rule only states "pinch-hit", but it's a reasonable (imho) extension to make it "pinch run" as well.

Another question that came up in discussions after the game. Can a double switch be made on offense as well as defense?

I think it's really the same question.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Yes, by most interps. The rule only states "pinch-hit", but it's a reasonable (imho) extension to make it "pinch run" as well.

OBR 6.10
The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same postiion in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player...

NFHS rules allow a DH for any defensive player (OBR allows only for the pitcher). And therefore disallows this three players changing positions that OBR allows.

NFHS 3-1-4 A designated hitter and the player for whom he is batting (the defensive player) are locked into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation. The role of the DH is terminated for the remainder of the game when:
a. the defensive player, or any previous defensive player for whom the DH batted, subsequently bats, pinch-hits, or pinch runs for the DH (the defensive player has entered the offensive line-up [the batting order] for the DH when he bats, hit, or runs).
b. the DH or any previous DH assumes a defensive position.

Your scenario could, and probably should have been allowed under OBR but would not be acceptable for NFHS rules.

(Obviously the parenthetical comments in the above rule statements are mine.)

I would like to add my own question to this thread:

If, after the DH has been terminated, can the DH re-enter the game to play defense and to bat in his original spot on the batting order? For example: DH for pitcher. Pitcher enters and bats for DH - DH role is terminated. Can DH now re-enter and pitch, or play any other position, with the pitcher, that batted for the DH and that terminated the DH role, leaving the batting order (9 players batting and the same 9 playing defense. Original pitcher is gone and DH is now playing defense and batting)? This seems reasonable and I would allow it. Am I correct?

FED rules specifically say the DH may re-enter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I would like to add my own question to this thread:

If, after the DH has been terminated, can the DH re-enter the game to play defense and to bat in his original spot on the batting order? For example: DH for pitcher. Pitcher enters and bats for DH - DH role is terminated. Can DH now re-enter and pitch, or play any other position, with the pitcher, that batted for the DH and that terminated the DH role, leaving the batting order (9 players batting and the same 9 playing defense. Original pitcher is gone and DH is now playing defense and batting)? This seems reasonable and I would allow it. Am I correct?

FED rules specifically say the DH may re-enter.

FED rules allow a starter to re-enter. OBR does not. Thus, you are incorrect.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Your scenario could, and probably should have been allowed under OBR but would not be acceptable for NFHS rules.

I believe that in OBR while on offense the pitcher may only enter the game in the spot of the DH.

While on defense the pitcher may assume the position of another player, but doing so will lose the role of DH. If such other player is kept in the game to pitch, then the pitcher enters the batting spot of the DH. If such player is not moved to pitcher, then the starting pitcher will bat in the batting slot of the removed player, and the reliever entering the game must bat in the batting slot that the DH occupied.

I don't think the move requested was legal for OBR, and I believe Jay R. took correct action in not allowing the change.

The move was definitely not allowable in Fed since the pitcher and batter are locked into the same batting slot.


Freix

[Jim Porter]

It's in parentheses near the end of 6.10.

"(The game pitcher may only pinch hit for the Designated Hitter)"

That's it. That's all he can do. He can't pinch run for the shortstop, he can't pinch hit for the catcher - he may only pinch hit for the DH - no more, no less.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

FED rules allow a starter to re-enter. OBR does not. Thus, you are incorrect.

But it is acceptable for NFHS. Correct? DH was a starter and in FED he is allowed to re-enter - although after the DH role is terminated, he must now also play defense.

Originally posted by Jim Porter
It's in parentheses near the end of 6.10.

"(The game pitcher may only pinch hit for the Designated Hitter)"

That's it. That's all he can do. He can't pinch run for the shortstop, he can't pinch hit for the catcher - he may only pinch hit for the DH - no more, no less.

Yes but earlier in 6.10 the rule is says
"The designated hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player..." This is almost exactly the original scenario as given by Jay R but requested by the coach during their offensive half inning rather than in the defensive context of which the rule is stated. The only difference is now the entering pitcher for R2 didn't have to bat - he becomes a runner for R2 without having to face the pitcher.

Perhaps this is the difference and the justification of why the substitution should not be allowed... or perhaps it is so trivial of a difference that as Bob Jenkins stated, it is a reasonable extension of the rule and should be allowed.

Precedence anyone?

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Yes but earlier in 6.10 the rule is says
"The designated hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player..." This is almost exactly the original scenario as given by Jay R but requested by the coach during their offensive half inning rather than in the defensive context of which the rule is stated.

I'm sure you see that part of the rule doesn't at all deal with the pitcher and whether or not he can pinch run. That question is handled by the aforementioned part in parentheses. The part of the rule you quoted, as you said yourself, has a defensive context. All it covers is the defensive use of the DH. That's it. All the pitcher can do is pinch hit for the DH, as noted in parentheses. I just don't see the big mystery. It seems more clear than most rules in the OBR.

Of course, I live in the only state that uses the OBR for high school, and the DH is also used. We cover it extensively, so perhaps that's why it just seems clear to me.

[Edited by Jim Porter on Jul 30th, 2003 at 07:41 PM]

[Rich]

In FED the DH and the player DHed for are locked into the same spot. This assumes in the original question that the pitcher is the started being DHed for.

In OBR -- on defense the team can make multiple changes and choose where the players will go in the lineup.

On offense, the game pitcher can only pinch-hit for the DH. Now, I would extend that to mean pinch-run as well even though it is not specifically listed in the OBR.

Rich

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
On offense, the game pitcher can only pinch-hit for the DH. Now, I would extend that to mean pinch-run as well even though it is not specifically listed in the OBR.

Rich

I don't know about that, Rich. Our state's interpretation does not allow a pitcher to pinch run for the DH. I'm pretty sure that in Major League Baseball, a pitcher cannot pinch run for DH also, but I couldn't imagine it ever happening.

[thumpferee]

OBR 6.10 A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch run. A Designated Hitter is "locked" into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter. Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch hit for the Designated Hitter).

[Rich]

Jim,

Does RI allow HS teams to DH for a player other than the pitcher? I worked in MA for three seasons and simply can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

Rich

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

But it is acceptable for NFHS. Correct? DH was a starter and in FED he is allowed to re-enter - although after the DH role is terminated, he must now also play defense.

Maybe I misread your question. I thought you were asking "I think this is legal under OBR. Correct? I know it's legal under Fed."

The play you describe is legal in FED, not legal in OBR.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

I would like to add my own question to this thread:

If, after the DH has been terminated, can the DH re-enter the game to play defense and to bat in his original spot on the batting order? For example: DH for pitcher. Pitcher enters and bats for DH - DH role is terminated. Can DH now re-enter and pitch, or play any other position, with the pitcher, that batted for the DH and that terminated the DH role, leaving the batting order (9 players batting and the same 9 playing defense. Original pitcher is gone and DH is now playing defense and batting)? This seems reasonable and I would allow it. Am I correct?

FED rules specifically say the DH may re-enter.

In your scenario, Tony, the DH may re-enter since he left the lineup but has re-entry privilege remaining.

Where your statement is incorrect is where you indicate that the pitcher is "gone."
I inderstand that to mean he's done for the day............
That is not so. The pitcher, too, is considered a starter. He did not "re-enter" when he assumed the batting position of the DH. He has been removed from the lineup only once---that being with the re-entry of the DH. The pitcher still retains his re-entry privilege and can later re-enter into the same batting position.


Freix

[DownTownTonyBrown]

OBR only (no FED - I understand the FED)

Batting order for Team Alphanumeric is as follows:
1. Alpha - F2
2. Bravo - F3
3. Charlie - F4
4. Delta - DH
5. Echo - F5
6. Foxtrot - F6
7. Golf - F7
8. Hotel - F8
9. India - F9
10. Juliet - F1 (not batting)

In the 6th inning with Team Alphanumeric on defense...

F1, Juliet, moves to F8 and enters the batting order in the 8th position (He previously has not been batting due to the DH role).

F9, India, is now going to pitch. DH, Delta, goes to position F9 and plays right field.

DH role is now terminated (because F1, Juliet, has left the pitching position and moved to a different defensive position) - DH, Delta, must now play defense. And one of the defensive players (India) must leave his defensive position and the batting order.

The batting order for Team Alpha numeric now becomes:

1. Alpha - F2
2. Bravo - F3
3. Charlie - F4
4. Delta - F9
5. Echo - F5
6. Foxtrot - F6
7. Golf - F7
8. Juliet - F8
9. India - F1

Previous #8 batter, Hotel, is now out of the game and cannot re-enter (no re-entry rule in OBR).

This is allowed, correct? This is per the requirements of the rule as stated "The DH may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player,... (and) Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the DH role for the remainder of the game... (and) Once a DH assumes a defensive position this move shall terninate the DH role for the remainder of the game."

And this change can only be made with Team Alphanumeric on defense, per the parenthetical portion of the rule "(The game pitcher may only pinch hit [and this portion of the rule is extended to also mean pinch run] for the DH.)"

Is this all correct?