Time Play
 

I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

Run scores. R2 was not forced to third so this is a timing play

-Josh

Assuming the batter did touch first so that there is no option of an appeal play there, yes it does. It really doesn't matter if the batter touches first before the tag of R2 as to whether the run counts or not.

But if the shortstop had thrown to first, there would be no question of the run scoring or not. So the coach will probably have a chat with him.


Rita

Thanks!
 

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

Think about it this way though ... you don't know, at the moment the 3rd out was made, whether the batter-runner would have been safe at first... but once that 3rd out is made, they have no reason to continue running, so you'll never really know.

The rules make it easy for us in just about every case. If the 3rd out is made on a batter runner before they reach first, or on a forced runner, no runs can score. In any other case, runs that happen before the 3rd out count. (And a polite request for the umpire lawyers to not confuse the situations with extraneous info that doesn't apply to OP's situation! Please!?!?! :) )

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

It's up to the defense to get the batter out at first base.

You aren't the first lifelong baseball lover who doesn't know how it is as opposed to the logic they want it to be. Umpires go with how it is, not how the logic goes.

My son (a coach) and I get into some interesting discussions!

Rita

In roughly 45 years, I have seen only 2 teams who knew that this was possible. Most teams stop after they record the 3rd out.

I can't go as many years as Ozzy, but I can't recall an F6 who tagged the runner in this situation, they just throw the ball to 1b for the 3rd out that prevents any runs from scoring. Seems strange that R3 would score before the tag if it did happen though.

Because the out on the B/R becomes the 3rd out.

How are you getting a put out in your second scenario BBlom? If I'm assuming nothing crazy happens on a bases loaded walk?

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

It's not an appeal. It's a replacement out!

In the rules, the advantageous fourth out is only mentioned as resulting from the appeal of a baserunning error. Various interpretations stretch that to include an out made on the B/R before he reaches 1st base (you would think it would also apply to a forced runner but none of the interps addresses that). It doesn't make sense to me (or Carl), but that's the way it is.

Not true. 4th out appeals for missing a base are honored... but there's no 4th out to be had in the play described here.

It is true (all codes). The D can still play on the B/R before he reaches 1st base, even after the third out.

I think MD Longhorn is correct now. The BRD referenced Hopkins, Fetchiet and Fitzpatrick in 2001 as agreeing to the interp which as you and Childress say, doesn't make sense.
My 2012 Wendelstedt Umpire manual reverses that interp and does not allow the BR to be put out if the defense played on somebody else for the third out. They say the defense had the opportunity to make the third at 1B out and was not vigilant.

Does MD Longhorn have other cites for this?

But the BR, having not yet reached first, is not required to continue running after the 3rd out is made elsewhere.

You would think so - but that is contrary to three official rulings (FED, NCAA & OBR) that say the B/R can still be put out for the advantageous fourth out. Now umpjim says the Wendelstedt manual says otherwise.

Carl says he hopes this never happens in any of our (and his) games. I share his wish.

And J/R agrees with the three official rulings: the advantageous 4th out applies to any force out or the B/R.

If you think this ruling doesn't make sense, ask yourself if Wendelstedt's alternate ruling (4th out is only effective if an appeal is upheld) makes sense. Bases loaded, ball to F6 who tags R2 after R3 scores. According to the Wendelstedt interp, if the B/R deserts, or R1 abandons before reaching 2nd, the run scores, and there is no advantageous 4th out. But if the B/R or R1 continues to advance, and misses the base, now a 4th out can supersede R2's out. IMO, this is the interp that doesn't make sense. Why is abandoning /deserting OK, but missing a base is not? Neither act is legal base running.

Instead, if we believe (as has been officially ruled) that a 4th out is effective whenever a forced runner or the B/R is put out before reaching their advance base or if a missed base appeal on such a runner is upheld, then the rule is self consistent.

I've never bought into that theory that runners should continue running after a third out is recorded. After all, OBR 5.07 is pretty clear, in my mind, of what happens:

"When three offensive players are legally put out, that team takes the field and the opposing team becomes the offensive team."

There is no requirement whatsoever specified in the rule that says other runners are required to continue running after "three offensive players are legally put out" to meet whatever obligation they had before that third out. It says that they simply take the field at that point, because all obligations to advance are done, finished, completed.

Obligations to continue advancing to bases after play essentially concludes are limited to when winning runs score. There is nothing in the rules requiring the same after three outs are recorded. So I have no idea why authoritative interpreters out there require runners to keep running after three outs when the rule clearly tells those runner they must now go play defense.

Um ... you're aware that no run scores on this play either, right? No need for an advantageous 4th out - the THIRD out was a force already.

That aside, insisting that runners run after the 3rd out does not make sense (and never has). The inning is over after 3 outs. 4th out appeals apply to transgressions that occurred before that third out.

The inning isn't over until no appeals are possible. Otherwise no 4th out could ever be achieved.

It doesn't make sense because it requires the offense to continue playing when there is no possibility of anything to gain and after the inning has concluded, by rule. Also, by rule, there is nothing that indicates a fourth out can be recognized on a non-appeal play.

Agree. But those fourth out appeals are on running violations before the third out is recorded. There shouldn't be any requirements for runners to continue running after the third out, per the wording of 5.07.

The onus is not on the offense to keep playing but on the defense to continue to play to get the advantageous fourth out. A good crew will continue to watch the defense until action is relaxed. The umpires can then rule if a proper appeal is made.

Wendelstedt says that the onus is on the defense to get the proper third out.

If you go with the interpretation that fourth outs can be made on non-appeal plays, then that puts the onus on the offense to keep playing.

I will agree it is on both to keep playing. The situation in the OP would require the BR to accquire 1B before the defense can tag the BR or 1B for the run to count.

This exactly.

So, in the OP play, F6 tags R2 going to third for the third non-force out, and R3 crossed home plate beforehand. But then F6 throws the ball to F3 to play on the BR who is still heading to first but slowing down because he saw the tag of R2.

How is that considered an advantageous fourth out appeal? The BR has done nothing wrong, to that point, to warrant an appeal. He hasn't missed first base. Heck, he's still on his way to the bag. Are you suggesting that a proper appeal can be made while a BR is still heading to the bag?

Or are we now expanding the recognition of advantageous fourth outs to include non-appealable situations where the runner is still on his way to a base after the third out?

The BRD quoted three rules gurus in 2001 that said the BR can be played on for an advantageous fourth out. This can only happen with R2, R3. The ruling has stayed in the BRD to at least 2011. I don't know what the latest JR has.
The WUM does not agree and hopefully it will not occur in your or my games.

It's not an appeal. Those that think so need to go re-read the appeals section. Simply throwing out a runner who has not reached the base he's forced to is not an appeal.

An appeal must be made for some sort of transgression... missed base, leaving early on a caught ball, etc.

Bingo.

Then rule 5.07 is fundamentally flawed and requires a cited Exception.

7.10(d) is also flawed in that it doesn't recognize fourth outs as routine outs. It only recognizes them as appeals for running infractions that occur before the third out is recorded.

Neither is flawed if you agree with the WUM interp, which I'm now inclined to do, having been misled by the BRD interp these past few years which even the author found "non-intuitive."

It could hypothetically happen any time there's two or more runners.

With two outs maybe R3, R1 stealing on the pitch. With one out bases loaded, DP ball to 2B and then somehow R2 gets tagged and BR hasn't made it to 1B. I think R2 and BR getting injured at the crack of the bat would work.