Courtesy Runner Etiquette

[onetime1]

Fed rules of course. Two thoughts. If a team sends the same courtesy runner to run for both the pitcher and the catcher.. should we prevent/stop immediately? As an opposing coach should one report infraction immediately or wait for a pitch and claim this was an illegal subsitution and is there a penalty enforced?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by onetime1

Fed rules of course. Two thoughts. If a team sends the same courtesy runner to run for both the pitcher and the catcher.. should we prevent/stop immediately? As an opposing coach should one report infraction immediately or wait for a pitch and claim this was an illegal subsitution and is there a penalty enforced?

If you are keeping your lineup card correctly, you should realize immediately that the HC is attempting to have the same CR run for both the F1 and the F2, and you should tell the HC that he has to use a different substitute.

MTD, Sr.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by onetime1

As an opposing coach should one report infraction immediately or wait for a pitch and claim this was an illegal subsitution and is there a penalty enforced?

This is not an illegal substitution, since CRs must be eligible substitutes. It's an unreported substitution. The CR is now in the lineup, and the P or C has been out of the game once and can reenter.

However, this can't take place in the same half-inning.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CT1

This is not an illegal substitution, since CRs must be eligible substitutes. It's an unreported substitution. The CR is now in the lineup, and the P or C has been out of the game once and can reenter.

However, this can't take place in the same half-inning.

2-36-3g "An illegal substitute is a player who violates the courtesy runner rule." See also case CR1.

IOW, onetime is correct that it's a illegal substitute.

So, yes, stop it. IF it's not stopped, then the player is out and restricted. THe opposing coach doesn't need to wait for a pitch before asking about it (but if he asks "too early" then there's the risk that the umpire wil just change it in the name of game management -- so I'd at least wait for the ball to become live).

[bluehair]

Unless this is a higher level game that I remember how they use CR, I don't remember which CR goes with F1/F2. And I don't want to pull out lineups to check every time they are used. On the back of left hand I have written (see below). I have a felt tipped marker in my ballbag and write the number of CRs on my hand as they come in. And all I need to do is look at the back of my hand to verify that CRs are done legally. DC is for the inning number where a defensive conference was used.

_____H___V
P___21___8
C __12___22
DC___3___6
_____4
_____5

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bluehair

Unless this is a higher level game that I remember how they use CR, I don't remember which CR goes with F1/F2. And I don't want to pull out lineups to check every time they are used. On the back of left hand I have written (see below). I have a felt tipped marker in my ballbag and write the number of CRs on my hand as they come in. And all I need to do is look at the back of my hand to verify that CRs are done legally. DC is for the inning number where a defensive conference was used.

_____H___V
P___21___8
C __12___22
DC___3___6
_____4
_____5

I pull out the lineup card for each CR. This kind of thread is exactly why I do that. You can be very quick with a lineup card and still verify that the right person is coming in to CR in that spot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bluehair

Unless this is a higher level game that I remember how they use CR, I don't remember which CR goes with F1/F2. And I don't want to pull out lineups to check every time they are used. On the back of left hand I have written (see below). I have a felt tipped marker in my ballbag and write the number of CRs on my hand as they come in. And all I need to do is look at the back of my hand to verify that CRs are done legally. DC is for the inning number where a defensive conference was used.

_____H___V
P___21___8
C __12___22
DC___3___6
_____4
_____5

And then when you sweat and iut rubs off? OR when it gets on your uniform?

And, how will you know if the CR has alredy participated in the game if you don't have it on the lineup card?

I don't see how what you are doing is any better than writing it on the lineup card (and if you don't get lineups then at least take a piece of paper with you).

[onetime1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2-36-3g "An illegal substitute is a player who violates the courtesy runner rule." See also case CR1.

IOW, onetime is correct that it's a illegal substitute.

So, yes, stop it. IF it's not stopped, then the player is out and restricted. THe opposing coach doesn't need to wait for a pitch before asking about it (but if he asks "too early" then there's the risk that the umpire wil just change it in the name of game management -- so I'd at least wait for the ball to become live).

So from a coaching standpoint.. wait until the ball becomes live that make the accusation of an illegal CR. Then the runner is out and in 1 of the 3 for that half inning? and restricted to the dugout

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by onetime1

So from a coaching standpoint.. wait until the ball becomes live that make the accusation of an illegal CR. Then the runner is out and in 1 of the 3 for that half inning? and restricted to the dugout

I'm not sure that I could have been more clear on the proper ruling.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And then when you sweat and iut rubs off? When it is hot and I sweat, it doesn't work. I can't even write on a wet hand. OR when it gets on your uniform? Never had that happen.

And, how will you know if the CR has alredy participated in the game if you don't have it on the lineup card? Good point. I do look at lineup cards in between innings a few times during games.

I don't see how what you are doing is any better than writing it on the lineup card (and if you don't get lineups then at least take a piece of paper with you). The OP had to do with watching for the same CR being used for both F1 and F2. My writing on hand method is not any better than writing on a linecard, just a quicker method to check it. YMMV.

...

[Manny A]

Yeah, YMMV. But I'm not writing anything on the back of my hands when I umpire. To me, that just doesn't look very professional.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bluehair

...

BlueHair:

I think you are missing the point that Rich, Bob, and I are trying to tell you. There is only one correct way to keep track of the CRs, and that is to use your Lineup Card. To do it any other way is not correct and the way that you have described can only be described as lazy and unprofessional.

MTD, Sr.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There is only one correct way to...

That reminds me of what my old boss once told me, "There is the right way, a wrong way, and my way to do things". So glad I have my own business and don't have to listen to one way Joes anymore.

So each and every time you have a CR come into the game, you pull out your lineup card, go through all of the players/numbers and write/verify that the CR is not an illegal sub and is running for the proper battery member. Internet umpires are so funny. I'll be willing to bet dollars to donuts (I know it's even money these days) that their virtuous/virtual practices and ballfield practices are not necessarily the same.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bluehair

That reminds me of what my old boss once told me, "There is the right way, a wrong way, and my way to do things". So glad I have my own business and don't have to listen to one way Joes anymore.

So each and every time you have a CR come into the game, you pull out your lineup card and write/verify that he is not an illegal sub and is running for the proper battery member. Internet umpires are so funny. I'll be willing to bet dollars to donuts (I know it's even money these days) that their virtuous/virtual practices and ballfield practices are not necessarily the same.

BlueHair:

Everybody on the Forums know that my primary sport is basketball and my secondary sport is baseball (with fast pitch softball a distant third). And if you go to the Basketball Forum and as them to read your response (see above) they will tell you that I am going to take you to the woodshed for a good old fashion whopping.

Listen up whippersnapper. I have been a boys' and girls' H.S. basketball official for 42 years; I officiated women's college basketball for 34 years (from jr. college to Division I) and men's jr. college basketball for fifteen years. I am a basketball rules interpreter, instructional chairman, and a staffer at basketball officiating camps. When I hear a camper respond the way you just did, you know what I do or any other staffer would do: We drop you from our minds. We don't care whether you sink or swim because your actions tell us that you don't want to learn and get better.

I do not want to hear your horse manure about "one way Joes". I just hope II not your BU when you screw the pooch with regard to a CR because you have not done your job and taken business with the Lineup Card as the PU.

And yes, when I am the PU I pull out my Lineup Card and take care of business each every time (baseball and fast pitch softball) a CR enters the game. Actually that is a lie. When I am umpiring, 90% of the time our assigners pair Mark, Jr., and I together and 99% he takes the Plate for his "old man" and yes he takes care of business each every time (baseball and fast pitch softball) a CR enters the game.

MTD, Sr.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Listen up whippersnapper. I have been a boys' and girls' H.S. basketball official for 42 years;

...And yes, when I am the PU I pull out my Lineup Card and take care of business each every time (baseball and fast pitch softball) a CR enters the game. Actually that is a lie. When I am umpiring, 90% of the time our assigners pair Mark, Jr., and I together and 99% he takes the Plate for his "old man" and yes he takes care of business each every time (baseball and fast pitch softball) a CR enters the game.

MTD, Sr.

Congrats on your 42 yrs of officiating...
...but you now rely on your partner to get things covered. And though I also get things covered (without using my partners as a crutch), I am the lazy and unprofessional one (now add unwilling to learn to your rash list of my shortcomings)...huh, I guess age does have its perks.