Windup Balk

When, from the Windup Position, the pitcher starting (a) with glove hand up in front of his boddy and pithcing hand at his side, (b) both hand together up in front of his body, or (c) both hands at his side, my start his motion to deliver without interuption.

My understanding of 8.01(a) is that it is a balk, with runners on base, if in (a) above the pitching hand comes up to the glove hand and motion stops before continuing to pitch, or if in (c) above both hands come up to in front of the body and motion stops before continuing to pitch.

In (a) and (c), the pitching motion has started once the hand(s) start to move up. Am I wrong?

[aadog]

I agree in principal that it would be a balk if you have defined the start of the wind up as the first motion after the pitcher toes the rubber. However I allow the pitcher to toe the rubber, then he can set his glove either at his side, in front or where ever legal, if reasonably soon after he wants to put his hand into the glove to adjust the ball that is allowed. If he wants to then bring his hand together and leave them there that is ok. In other words I allow him some moving around and adjusting until there is a clear point that I can say is the START of his windup phase. You may be looking too hard for a "technical balk". Is he deceving anybody? If you define the start of the windup "too early" in his post toe on rubber movements, I would think a balk would almost always be certain. There is little room for deception here any way as we can assume there is at least an R3 with the pitcher doing a windup. I think the answer to this question lies in where you are defining the "start of the windup phase". Also remember for any balk the intent of the rule is to prevent pitchers attempting to decieve runners. I'm not lazy but I don't look too hard for reasons to call balk.

[GarthB]

Also remember for any balk the intent of the rule is to prevent pitchers attempting to decieve runners.

Not completely true. Some deception is legal e.g.varying the set point and changing tempo.

While most balks are called for illegally deceiving the runner(s) the rules include some balks that are based on mechanical issues and violation of the prescribed
"behavior" of a pitcher rather than deception.

An example of a mechanical balk would be 8.05 (e)"The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;"

This references OBR 8.01(d): “If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be called a ball…”

Of course, we all know that an illegal pitch is one in which the pitcher delivers the ball before the batter is reasonably set (quick pitch), or when the pitcher is not in contact with the rubber. (Right?)

An example of a penal balk would be 8.05 (h)"The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;"

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Prince
When, from the Windup Position, the pitcher starting (a) with glove hand up in front of his boddy and pithcing hand at his side, (b) both hand together up in front of his body, or (c) both hands at his side, my start his motion to deliver without interuption.

My understanding of 8.01(a) is that it is a balk, with runners on base, if in (a) above the pitching hand comes up to the glove hand and motion stops before continuing to pitch, or if in (c) above both hands come up to in front of the body and motion stops before continuing to pitch.

In (a) and (c), the pitching motion has started once the hand(s) start to move up. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong, Prince, as you will see from the following quote from OBR 8.01(a)Comment:

If a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of the body, with the entire pivot foot on or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free, the pitcher will be considered in the Wind-up Position.{my underline}

The way I read that, the Wind-up position is not even reached UNTIL the hands come together in front of the body. It is only AFTER reaching this position that "any natural motion associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration."

So the hand motion you describe in coming INTO the Wind-up position DOES NOT in and of itself constitute "any natural motion associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter". It would only be AFTER the hands have come together that you could look for the start of the delivery motion, and yes that could be both hands moving up together AFTER reaching the wind-up position. A pause before starting the delivery motion is permitted, but not required as it is for the SET position.

As aadog has correctly noted, adjustments to the ball in the glove are also permitted. That means that you might actually NEED to see a stop, even though one is not required when pitching from the Wind-up, in order to be able to discern between ball adjustments and the actual start of the pitching motion.

Best thing to look for is the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after they have come together AND/OR a backward step with the free foot, BUT the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after they have come together may be enough by itself in your judgement. To recap:

1. The movement of the hands in first coming together is NOT necessarily the start of the pitching motion

2. The movement of the hands in making adjustments to the position of the ball in the glove is NOT the start of the pitching motion

3. The first UPWARD movement of BOTH hands after they have come together would represent the start of the pitching motion.

4. A pause following either A or B would NOT constitute a balk.

5. A pause following C WOULD definitely constitute a balk.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Bfair]

I agree with Warren......you are wrong.
This is not a balk in OBR.

I don't agree with Warren's contrived understanding of the pitcher not having started his motion. OBR simply allows for the pitcher to stop and reset provided ONLY his hands reset. That is, if he is also stepping back with his free foot or otherwise moving his feet, he is either starting his pitching motion or he is simulating a pitch when while stepping off the rubber. Keep in mind, however, that F1 is also allowed to deliver without interruption from the position of both hands at his sides. That is, he is not required to stop and reset. This certainly makes it more difficult for the runner playing under OBR interpretation to judge when the pitcher is actually in his delivery motion. If having not reset, the simultaneous movement of hands from his sides with a foot movement is the tell-tale clue.

Under OBR, the pitcher in the windup stance may have his hands together in front of him, both at his sides, or one in front and one at his side.

If starting without both hands in front of him, he may bring his hands together and reset for the pitch---coming to a stop. There is no time element involved in relation to when he engaged the rubber and when he must bring his hands together in front of him if he so desires to stop and reset. I.E.: He may run through his signals several times with his hands at his side if he so desires, and then bring his hands together in front him, stop, and reset.

From NAPBL 6.1.3:

Note that some pitchers assume their windup position with their hands apart (arms at their sides) and then go directly into their delivery to the plate from this position. Other pitchers assume their windup position with their hands apart and then bring their hands together and come to a stop before beginning their delivery to the plate [my emhpasis]. Either of these two positions is considered a legal windup position, and from either windup position (regardless of whether the pitcher's hands are together or apart), the pitcher may:

1. Deliver the ball to the batter, or
   
2. Step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or
   
3. Disengage the rubber by stepping off with his pivot foot first. (Disengaging the rubber by stepping back with his free foot first is a balk when runners are on base regardless of whether the pitcher's hands are together or apart.)

The passage makes no note of any time element required after engaging the rubber, and in custom and practice none is imposed. You are confusing elements of Fed interpretation with OBR interpretation.

What I will balk in OBR, however, is when the pitcher who starts with his hands apart then starts his hands forward and steps off the rubber before stopping in his reset position. Even though his customary motion may habitually be to stop and reset, once he has started his hands moving he is "in motion" until he again stops----which is allowed by interpretation. If he steps off while in motion, there was no guarantee that he intended to stop and reset since he is also allowed to deliver from a position of his hands separated, and therefore, he stepped off while in motion to deliver a pitch.

I hope you understand what I mean to say here........


Freix

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Bfair
I agree with Warren......you are wrong.
This is not a balk in OBR.

I don't agree with Warren's contrived understanding of the pitcher not having started his motion. OBR simply allows for the pitcher to stop and reset provided ONLY his hands reset. That is, if he is also stepping back with his free foot or otherwise moving his feet, he is either starting his pitching motion or he is simulating a pitch when while stepping off the rubber.

...[HUGE snip]...

I hope you understand what I mean to say here........


Freix

Another rather large NIT picked by an expert, eh Steve? When describing what the poster should look for as the start of the pitching motion I wrote:

Best thing to look for is the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after they have come together AND/OR a backward step with the free foot, BUT the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after they have come together may be enough by itself in your judgement.

Pay special attention to the underlined section. Doesn't look to me like anything that could be described, even loosely, as "contrived". In fact, it looks almost exactly like the YOUR much later advice repeated above! Go figure.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Prince
When, from the Windup Position, the pitcher starting (a) with glove hand up in front of his boddy and pithcing hand at his side, (b) both hand together up in front of his body, or (c) both hands at his side, my start his motion to deliver without interuption.

My understanding of 8.01(a) is that it is a balk, with runners on base, if in (a) above the pitching hand comes up to the glove hand and motion stops before continuing to pitch, or if in (c) above both hands come up to in front of the body and motion stops before continuing to pitch.

In (a) and (c), the pitching motion has started once the hand(s) start to move up. Am I wrong?

Your first sentence looks like a (parphrase of a) FED rule. You might be confusing the FED and OBR codes.

In FED, (c) is a commitment to pitch (once both hands move). (a) is legal (bringing one hand up to the other, then stopping).

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Warren Willson

Another rather large NIT picked by an expert, eh Steve?

Warren, I don't recall ever claiming to be or lableling myself as an expert. However, I do recall YOU stating that about me. I merely read and study the rules and provide my opinions.

Originally posted by Warren Willson
When describing what the poster should look for as the start of the pitching motion I wrote:

Best thing to look for is the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after they have come together AND/OR a backward step with the free foot, BUT the combined upward motion of BOTH hands after

After reading this once again, Warren, I offer my apologies.
In my first reading I misunderstood you to mean that both the upward movement of the hands or movement of the free foot---both occurring after the pitcher has reset---would indicate the start of the pitch. While this could be true, the movement of the free foot would not be limited to only after he has reset. That is, it could dictate the start of the pitch prior to the reset if occurring with his hands moving upward. Still, as officials we need be aware that mere movement of the free foot does not necessarily commit the pitcher to pitch. The movement may be the beginning of a legal step to a base---something allowed under OBR. And while we can refine it even better by addressing a step backward with his free foot, he is still allowed to legally step backward to 2B. Roder has addressed the legal vs. illegal action of such a step with the free foot as being dependent on the orientation of the foot. That is, whether the pitcher has turned his toe to 2B to indicate a step to the base vs. a heel first movement backward which would indicate the start of a pitch.

After re-reading your post, I understand those statements now to be addressed separately from the point of reset. I think what led to my misunderstanding, Warren, was your statement:

The way I read that, the Wind-up position is not even reached UNTIL the hands come together in front of the body. It is only AFTER reaching this position that "any natural motion associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration."

You appeared to me as being focused on the motion after the hands reset in front of the body. Certainly motion naturally associated with his pitch can occur when starting with his pitching hands at his sides and not necessarily makiong a stop with those hands in front of the body. He is not required to reset, and he is not required to use the same pitching motion with each separate delivery.

Again, Warren, I apologize for my misunderstanding of your statements which I felt left out certain potential movements which could be legal or illegal.


Just my opinion,

Freix