Balk?

[grunewar]

I'm not a baseball ump and all I have to go on is what was discussed by the game announcers, so please be patient

White Sox vs Angels. Sox in the field, Angels have runners on 1st and 2nd.

Sox first basement is not holding the runner on 1st and is in front of the runner. They are both a good six or so feet off the bag.

Pitcher comes set and then throws toward 1st with no one covering. The 1st basemen catches the ball and makes a swipe tag and narrowly misses the runner. 1st base ump called a balk. Robin Ventura comes out of the Sox dugout, argues and gets tossed.

The announcers were surmising that you can't throw to an unoccupied bag, or some such discussion. There didn't appear to be any talk on the field about the pitchers foot, angle, or the move.

Thoughts? Rule? Announcers crazy? Not enough info? It was odd, as it was a close play.

Thanks.

[jicecone]

Don't believe that it is detailed that way in the rulebook however the MLBUM says it is a balk if if it is thrown to F3, when he is not obviously trying to retire the runner.

I would put quotations marks if I was sure that was the exact words. I don't have the manual here. It is the umpires discretion how obvious or not it is.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Don't believe that it is detailed that way in the rulebook however the MLBUM says it is a balk if if it is thrown to F3, when he is not obviously trying to retire the runner.

I would put quotations marks if I was sure that was the exact words. I don't have the manual here. It is the umpires discretion how obvious or not it is.

From PBUC "and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner."

F3's deke was so good that Hickox (check spelling) did not think it was obvious. He might have been explaining to Ventura that F3 was playing off the bag. To me, there was a play on and no balk. To Hickox, there was no play on.

And, the throw was close enough to direct to 1B anyway.

[Rich Ives]

You have to throw to 1B, not F3. If F3 is in the flight path he can catch it before it gets to 1B and that's OK. Ventura thought that part up when he played for the Mets.

But if F3 is back or in - that's not OK.

There is some leeway in that F3 has to be close enough to make a play on a runner going bask to the base. That pretty much means within reach. Having to lunge or make an exagerated swipe that even then misses pretty much says there wasn't a reasonable chance for a play.

[Richvee]

Here's the video
Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CWS@LAA: Ventura gets ejected in the fourth inning - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

[JJ]

Not a very good call UNLESS he balked the step. Heck, if he was balking the throw to the first baseman being off the bag it was downright lousy call in light of the fact that the video replay would seem to indicate the first baseman in fact tagged the runner out..

JJ

[Rita C]

Did anyone else notice the double stop?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Did anyone else notice the double stop?

Nobody cares in MLB

[DG]

The Evans Balk Video demonstrates a case where F1 throws to F3 off the bag in attempt to make a play. The video shows F3 about 12 feet from the bag, he makes a move toward 1b and recieves the ball about 6' from the bag and makes the tag. It kind of looks like a QB leading a receiver who catches the ball in stride. The obvious difference between this illustration and the on here is that it was obvious that F3 was moving to the bag to receive a throw and make a play. Not so in this example, F3 was flatfooted and likely a bit surprised by the throw and made the best of it.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by DG

The Evans Balk Video demonstrates a case where F1 throws to F3 off the bag in attempt to make a play. The video shows F3 about 12 feet from the bag, he makes a move toward 1b and recieves the ball about 6' from the bag and makes the tag. It kind of looks like a QB leading a receiver who catches the ball in stride. The obvious difference between this illustration and the on here is that it was obvious that F3 was moving to the bag to receive a throw and make a play. Not so in this example, F3 was flatfooted and likely a bit surprised by the throw and made the best of it.

Might have been a very good deke.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Nobody cares in MLB

I've heard that. But I'm still surprised that it isn't called.

Rita

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Nobody cares in MLB

I'm not in MLB, obviously. But I DO care. The lax enforcement is gonna cause us problems in NF ball.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I'm not in MLB, obviously. But I DO care. The lax enforcement is gonna cause us problems in NF ball.

"NF ball"? What is "NF ball"?

MLB pitchers get away with technical violations of the balk rule if it is part of their routine move before getting set. I've seen pitchers lean forward and take a step toward home with their free foot when going from the stretch to the set (Musina), tap the ball repeatedly in and out of the glove (Rocker), and do all sorts of other minor fluctuations that really fools nobody.

It's really no different than the free-foot step that pitchers take to the side or even to the front of the rubber as they windup. 8.01 allows only a backward step with that foot. It's also no different than the hesitation some Asian pitchers take during their windup. They make these moves all the time, and if they did them with base runners, they would never get balked for them.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

"NF ball"? What is "NF ball"?

MLB pitchers get away with technical violations of the balk rule if it is part of their routine move before getting set. I've seen pitchers lean forward and take a step toward home with their free foot when going from the stretch to the set (Musina), tap the ball repeatedly in and out of the glove (Rocker), and do all sorts of other minor fluctuations that really fools nobody.

It's really no different than the free-foot step that pitchers take to the side or even to the front of the rubber as they windup. 8.01 allows only a backward step with that foot. It's also no different than the hesitation some Asian pitchers take during their windup. They make these moves all the time, and if they did them with base runners, they would never get balked for them.

NF = National Federation (as in ... "of High Schools") You've been here a while - very surprised you haven't seen that abbreviation.