10 run rule?

[BadAxe]

Ok, my team is in 13 yr old Jr American Legion League. We were playing last night in a very close game (3-1) until the top of the 7th, when the other team exploded, and our team imploded. Well, they went on to score 8 runs to put them up 11-1. The umpire immediately called the game due to the 10 rule. But the team leading was the visiting team. I immediately protested and said there can be no 10 run rule without giving the home team their at-bats. They still called the game and immediately left, even before the teams lined up to shake hands (and we ALWAYS shake the umps hands after the game). But they did not stick around for a minute after calling the game.

Has anyone heard of a 10 run rule where the home team would not get their at-bats or were the umps completely wrong as I suspect in this case, and left immediately either due to not wanting to take flack, or they had somewhere to be. I won't go into the rest of the calls they made that were horrible (not just against us either).

Anyway we have a call into our League commish who feels this was completely wrong, and the game should be completed at the begining of the next game that we play them. The only question in his mind is does the game continue right where it left off (The other team only had 2 outs at the time) or do we revert back to the last complete inning played, which would be the sixth and would help us out greatly as we gave up 8 runs in the 7th. Anyway, I will post an update as the decision rendered, but was interested in all your opinions in this matter. Thanx.

BadAxe

[TriggerMN]

Only if that's a league rule. Otherwise, if the home team falls behind by 10 or more in the top of an inning, they are allowed their at-bat in the bottom of that same inning.

[kylejt]

Nice try, but you pickup the game at the time of the protest. You're down by 10, with two outs in the top of the seventh I'm afraid.

[BadAxe]

Kyle, lol I didn't really expect the game to revert to the 6th, just wishful thinking. Really just want opinions on if the umps were right or wrong in their calling of the game.

And Trigger, not only is it not a league rule, none of the coaches even knew there was a 10 run rule period in this league, let alone a 10 run rule that ends the game immediately, even if its the visiting team goes up by 10 without the home team batting.

[jicecone]

What I can't believe is that the league is this far into the season and NOBODY has defined this.

"we have a call into our League commish who feels this was completely wrong"

He runs the League and can't even tell you if it is wrong or not. This is definitly one of those plate conference topics I make sure to discuss before each game. It is the responsibility of the officials AND THE COACHES, to discuss these things before the game begins. It sound like there is lack of communication at ALL levels of your League.

I have worked leagues where the 10 run rule is in effect immediately after 5 innings and the tenth run is scored. Im not saying it is a good or bad rule, this is what is was.

"I won't go into the rest of the calls they made that were horrible (not just against us either)."

Please, stop throwing mud. Had you won, the officials would have done a great job. The fact here is that you, the league and the officials are ALL wrong. So don't go picking boogers.

[Robert E. Harrison]

I very seldomly shake hands with the coaches or teams after a game. I generally exit the field as quickly as possible usually on the side of the winning team accompanied by my partner(s). There have been times when I have to wait to get paid by the home coach. I do not enjoy the waiting if the home team loses.

[BadAxe]

jicecone , How bout stopping the crticizing tone? I was asking for opinions, not judgements. As far as the communications, this is a 1st year league, so we are learning as we go along.

My remark about the other bad calls made is not throwing mud in any way. There are a lot of problems with the umps this entire year, and the league has already decided to replace them next year. As I stated, the bad calls were not all against us, and NONE came in the inning where we totally lost it, except the call to end the game. They made calls so bad that when corrected by the coach they actually changed their call on the field. Nice professional umps huh? I am just throwing mud huh?

Didn't mean to offend your profession, but you jumped to conclusions you shouldn't have. Didn't the agreement we said yes to when signing up to these boards state no attacks? Well, I wish you would go back and read it. I would not sling mud at umps as I have done some umping before, albeit only at the LL level.

As I stated we are a 1st year league, with a lot of 1st year teams. We are learning, but yes, we have made some mistakes along the way. We have learned a lot that we will apply to next season.

Are you an ump? because if so, its attitudes like you just displayed that make horrible umpires. The kind that realize the power they have and like to excercise it in a game and be part of the outcome instead of letting the players decide.

So when you realize the rudeness of your reply, I will be around to apologize to.

[jicecone]

"this is a 1st year league, so we are learning as we go along."

Wait a minute, is there a double standard here. Mabey these officials were 1st year umpires. Cut them the slack like you want in return.

"Didn't the agreement we said yes to when signing up to these boards state no attacks?"

"They made calls so bad that when corrected by the coach they actually changed their call on the field. Nice professional umps huh? I am just throwing mud huh?"

"I won't go into the rest of the calls they made that were horrible (not just against us either)."

Ok, I give up. What nice names do you give to these critical remarks. Words of Wisdom

"Are you an ump?" Yes, and a very very good one at that. So when you realize the rudeness of your remarks, you can apologize to all the officials on this forum that work hard at your games and try to give you the best job they can. Not always perfect, like you want, but they do try.

[BadAxe]

Excuse me? I made no insults whatsoever at any official offering advice on these boards, so I owe noone here an apology. The reference to "attacks" would be directed at a poster as you so rudely did assuming you knew the situation, and telling me to "not throw mud" instead of answering the question I had proposed.

You can twist words anyway you would like to justify your "I know all" attitude. I will no longer battle with you here. But I asked a question, and you got rude with me, which should not be done on these boards.

I am sorry you took offense to my criticism of the officials I referred to. But the fact remains, they have been absolutely horrible this year, not just by my standards, but by anyone who has witnessed them. You know, for as much as we should appreciate umpires (Which I do immensely, I state again I have some experience, and would not want the job full time, its tough), there should also be some recognition of the ones that are just horribly bad. Just like any other job, there are people in this one that do not belong.

How would you react to an umpire that gives a catcher advice on what pitch to call? Well players from several teams have heard a particular PU do this for a certain team. Is that an official I should be apologizing for in this forum?

So instead of judging my statements, how bout maybe giving me the benefit of the doubt, especially considering the nature of my post was to only find out if the 10 run rule I asked about was legit. I had never heard of "instant 10 run rule", I have only experienced the home team always getting their at bats. A simple "Yes, this is done in some leagues" would have sufficed greatly.

Instead you chose to criticize me and automatically assume I was wrong and your beloved "officials" were right. Blind faith like that is just as bad as what you are accusing me of, but I am sure this will not get thru, and you will twist some more words to show me you are right. How could I be right, I am not an "official". So nothing I say about another "official" could possibly be right, correct?

Anyway, if any others have any opinions on the actual question I ask in my post, please feel free to help me get this thread back on topic, and not a battle of "officials are always right" please. Thank you.

[Rich]

Originally posted by BadAxe
, there should also be some recognition of the ones that are just horribly bad. Just like any other job, there are people in this one that do not belong.

How the hell would a non-umpire have any real clue whether an umpire was horrible or not?

[BadAxe]

Try not to selectively read my post. Please read all and your question will be answered. You guys are taking too much offense at this. You are blanketly defending these guys and trashing me. I have not insulted one of you. I asked a question and get insulted? Cmon, I thought this was a much more mature place that that.

Again, I have umpire experience, and respect the hell out of all umps, just for taking the time to do what you do. I respect all umps before during and after a game, no matter how bad I feel they called a game. I play this game with respect, I will always respect this game, all facets of it, including umpires. So why are you umpires trashing me? I love the game of baseball, yet am being treated here as if I don't deserve to be involved. I only asked for some knowledge of the 10 run rule. When whats his name questioned my integrity I gave some examples, and now I am getting trashed.

Is this not what this forum is exactly AGAINST?

I know how to ump, I respect umpires, therfore I know what makes a bad ump. Suggesting pitches to other catchers makes a bad ump. Letting a coach change your call on the field represents a bad ump. Yet you guys are blindly defending these guys just because they are umpires. Thats discrimination. Period. Please get this thread back on topic.

[David B]

Okay, your original topic, the umpires were wrong, unless there is some crazy local rule that your league plays by. How are we to know that?

But in every league that I've called in you always let the home team bat no matter if 25 runs are scored in the top of the inning (unless there is a local rule)

Originally posted by BadAxe

Suggesting pitches to other catchers makes a bad ump. Letting a coach change your call on the field represents a bad ump. Yet you guys are blindly defending these guys just because they are umpires.

Your other topic:

It depends on the league. Often in games where I have known the kids I'll talk with F2 about the pitches being thrown and etc., That's umpire and catcher talk that a coach never hears and never knows about unless his catcher F2 would tell him which they don't.

Usually we also talk about how bad the coach is, about why he called a pitch that just got hit 350 feet with a 1-2 count, and often times about how the coach always gets onto this kid more than others, and often times how many times the coach should have been thrown out of games this year.

I could go on and on, it gets quite humorous at times.

As far as changing calls, if the umpire made an incorrect call, and the coach points out the correct rule interpretation, then the umpire might change a call.
Now that usually only happens with umpires without much experience, but it sounds like you have such umpires in your league.

As far as shaking hands, you would have to shake mine at the car, I'm gone as soon as out 3 is recorded.

Thanks
David

[jicecone]

BadAxe,

I have worked with some very very good umpires and some very very HORRIBLE umpires and have let them know when I thought they were wrong. Just as I would expect the same in return.

How I approached them, was with constructive critizism. Most of the time these officials just didn't know the proper rules or correct mechanics. Not because they were horrible, but because no one had ever showed them how.
This is the case many of times.

Unfortunately, most officials only get to practice in real games. Unlike players and coaches that have just practice, to get better, officials don't get that priviledge. In most areas you have on the job training from your first assignment and then you have to get better each time. However, at all times you are expected to be perfect, from the first to the last game. WOW talk about pressure.

So yes, we do stick together and defend even the slightest critzism because we know what it was like during our training years. Which by the way, never end.

You see, just as your League is growing and learning, so are the officials.

Finally, as stated in my original reply, discuss all the situations at the pregame conference, just so everyone knows up front.Each League can be different.

Good Luck

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by jicecone
BadAxe,

I have worked with some very very good umpires and some very very HORRIBLE umpires and have let them know when I thought they were wrong. Just as I would expect the same in return.

How I approached them, was with constructive critizism. Most of the time these officials just didn't know the proper rules or correct mechanics. Not because they were horrible, but because no one had ever showed them how.
This is the case many of times.

Unfortunately, most officials only get to practice in real games. Unlike players and coaches that have just practice, to get better, officials don't get that priviledge. In most areas you have on the job training from your first assignment and then you have to get better each time. However, at all times you are expected to be perfect, from the first to the last game. WOW talk about pressure.

So yes, we do stick together and defend even the slightest critzism because we know what it was like during our training years. Which by the way, never end.

You see, just as your League is growing and learning, so are the officials.

Finally, as stated in my original reply, discuss all the situations at the pregame conference, just so everyone knows up front.Each League can be different.

Good Luck

I'm sorry, but I'm getting teary eyed.

Thank You Jicecone, on behalf of All of Us!

[rpnetter]

We had a similar situation (the 10-Run Rule) come up in our league early in our season this year and I was told (by an umpire) that there are no references to it in the OBR/LL rules. So apparently this rule is only in effect if it is contained in the Local Standing Rules.

While I very seldom criticize umpires and am very much aware that, especially in the volunteer organazations, we are all learning more every day I have to say that it seems strange to me that the umpire would be aware of a Local Standing Rule that the league president doesn't know about. What I am afraid may have happened here is that this 1st year league didn't know enough to write/enforce the rule and the umpire simply assumed that the rule was in force due to the fact that it seems to be a pretty standard Local Rule in most leagues.

Perhaps I was given some misinformation and the 10-Run rule is in the OBR/LL rule books. If so then this post is just so much garbage, if not then the President should not have to look into if this is a rule or not but rather why the umpires are enfocing Local Standing Rules that do not exist for the league. In our league we had a meeting with all of the umpires that would be doing our games and made sure that they were aware of our Local Standing Rules before the season even started. Perhaps this step was not covered with the umpires working in Axe's league.

In either case, I have never heard of the rule being put into effect as a "Sudden Death" type of trigger where the game is immediately over as soon as a 10-run spread exists after the number of innings required to make the game legal.

Axe, as to your oblique comments to horrible calls my philosophy has always been that if the bad calls are made against both teams there is nothing to get upset about. What I always tell my players (or more correctly their parents since the parents are usually MUCH more vocal) is that this is a human game umpired by humans and even the best will sometimes make mistakes. If this is a youth league as I suspect then you have to keep in mind that the umpires are probably learning as well. If you are serious about keeping the league going (and I hope you do) then the league may consider arranging some umpiring seminars/classes for your resident umpires rather than dismissing them out of hand. I have been involved in our league as a Manager, Coach, Board Member and occasional Umpire and know how hard it is to get volunteer umpires to start with. If you are able to get them you should (as a league) do everything you can to retain them and give them every opportunity to learn their craft that is possible.

P.S. Before anyone flames me on this, I know that there are umpire organizations where paid umpires can be contracted with little or no effort, but one of the quirks in our league is that the district we are part of very firmly believes that the umpires (like the managers, board members, etc.) should be volunteers. We work around this by compensating our junior umpires with training opportunities and supplying gear/apparel.