The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 09:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 345
Talking

All;

Last night I was working a game in a well organized league. About 1000 were in paid attendance and all kinds of promotions were conducted just as you would find at many minor league ball parks. I was working with the biggest of the big dogs. He has done NCAA regionals and super regionals as recently as this month. Someday he will probably do a World Series.

NCAA rules (However, I did my research from OBR standpoint since I could find nothing in NCAA that directly bears on the problem. The BRD does not list any differences between OBR, NCAA, or FED on this issue.) I was on the bases and the super big dog was the PU.

The batter squared around to bunt and hit the ball. From my position in "C", here is what I saw. As he started towards first, the ball popped up from the ground and hit him in the stomach. I would say that he definitely had one foot in the box and a 50/50 chance that he had two in the box at the time that it hit him. He then tripped over the ball a couple of times as he ran towards first. I immediately called "Foul" and my partner called time. My partner called him out for interference!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course the offensive coach came out to "discuss" this call. At the time, I thought that all my partner had seen was the BR tripping over the ball and was prepared to have him come to me for help. (After the game, I learned that he had seen the contact with the BR's stomach and yet he still made the same call)

In the parking lot, my partner revealed his conversation with the coach. (The coach was previously convicted over an assault and battery charge involving one of our umpires, so at the time I was prepared for a heated argument and possible intervention on my part. The conviction was about six years ago.) The coach came down to the PU and said "He still had one foot in the box when it hit him!"

The PU said " Thank's for confirming what I saw. He must have both feet in the box or he is out for interference." The coach immediately turned around and went back to his position. Note: I doubt very much if he would have done that had I been the umpire. Big dogism has its priviledges.

In the parking lot, I said that I have always called it foul unless the BR is completely out of the box when contact is made with a batted ball.

The relevent text on this matter is contained in JEA under rule 6.05g. Any fair ball that strikes a BR causes the BR to be declared out. In or out of the batters box does not matter. Keep in mind that 80-90% of the batters box is in foul territory, but under the rule if a player was crowding the plate and forward in the box, a ball hit off of his left ankle (OWWWW) would cause him to be declared out. The left ankle, in this situation, would be in fair territory.

Now, no umpire that I know would call this an out. Furthermore, the JEA has a note to umpires from 1942 which strongly encourages them to call this foul.

Have I missed a rule here? Is there some other authoritative ruling that someone could point to with regards to players being hit by batted balls in the batters box? (one foot in, two feet in)

This ruling and others like it are part of a trend that I have seen in NCAA umpires recently. However, that discussion will be the subject of an article in the subscription section that I have been working on. This incident adds meat to the article. Consider this post a serious question as well as an advertisement for coming attractions.

BTW, had this been a junior umpire that I was working with, I would have chewed him out for making this call. However, with Big Dogs, I keep my mouth shut. Furthermore this was one more out on a muggy night. The big dog did nine full innings in 2:07. I'll take that anytime.

Peter

Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 12:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Good question

I don't know of any other references either; however, a couple of weeks ago this almost exact play happened in a Braves game and the "big dog" ML umpire also called the out.

Of course the ESPN crew agreed with the call, but upon further review, (replay)

it was very obvious that he was still in the box with his back foot and the ball hit him in that thigh.

I agree with you that I would NOT have called the out.

If there is evidence, I must have missed it also.

Thanks
David
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 12:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 286
Not to cause confusion . . . the proper mechanic is for the BU to yell "Dead Ball!"; not "Foul".

It's up to the PU to determine if the ball was "Foul" or "Interference."

Just some fodder for the future.

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 286
Tim,
You must have gone after me. I'm sure they're trying to conserve time and words nowadays. "Time" is a good call. Much preferred to "Foul"; and doesn't cause any confusion.

Hopefully the "newbies" will understand the difference.

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 813
Peter, the book is quite clear that if a batted ball strikes the batter while in the box it should be called a foul ball. I'm sure we don't disagree there.

Still, the rulebooks all indicate that when one foot entirely out of the box, the batter is considered outside the box. Of course, this reference comes from sections regarding the batter while striking the ball and not running to 1B. While I felt I once stumbled across a similar reference related to a batter leaving the box after having struck the ball, I was unable to locate it when I specifically searched for it.

IMO, running into a ball is different than being struck with a batted ball as it immediately comes off the bat. With that said, I don't personally believe that a batter should be entitled to run into his own batted ball over fair territory. He needs to be cognizant of where that batted ball went---if only downward to the plate---before he starts running into his own batted ball. Once he starts toward 1B and puts that foot totally outside the box, he better not run into a ball when I'm PU. My call will be the same as your partner's. I believe that call was also made in an MLB game this spring where the batter was declared out with his trail foot still in the box. It was discussed somewhere in a thread.

On June 18th I questioned the WUA on it as follows:
    While it's understood that a ball striking the batter while in the batter's box should be a foul ball, exactly when is the batter considered out of the batter's box should his batted ball strike him, or should he run into a batted ball?

    On hit and run the batter reaches for an outside pitch, striking it with his foot in the air. His lead foot lands totally in front of the plate and is struck totally outside the box while his trail foot is still planted in the box.

    (2) Batter bunts the ball which strikes the plate and rebounds straight upward (fair)as the batter begins to leave the box. The batter has planted one foot outside the box but still has his trail foot on the ground inside the box.

    Is this batter out, or is this a foul ball?


And the WUA response is:
    If the ball goes down and immediately strikes the batter, or bounces and comes up and immediately strikes the batter or his bat, it is a foul ball only and not interference. If the batter-runner takes a step and then touches a fair ball (contact is not immediate) then it is probably interference, though one would have to see the play [my emphasis]. It is a judgment call. Generally, if the batter runner is still in the box and had no chance to avoid the ball it is ruled foul. If he leaves the box he is at risk for interference, of course.

    Thanks for your inquiry!

    World Umpires Association

Certainly Roder supplies no definitive ruling on a batter being considered outside the box merely because one foot lands outside the box while the other foot remains in, but he certainly suggests that it would likely be interference (since it's illegal to strike the ball with a foot outside the box and, thus, the batter would most likely have to take a step to be outside the box). But to answer your question, it's obviously not a wrong call merely because the batter's trail foot is still in the box---as you and many others seem to state.

If I believe the runner ran into the ball over fair territory after stepping out of the box, then I have interfrence. If I judge that the ball went toward the batter and struck him before his attempt to run, I'm likely ruling it a foul ball. I suspect your partner judged that the batter had left the box and ran into his own fair ball, however close to the plate that may have been. If that's his judgment, then it's likely the proper interpretation by calling him out.


Just my opinion,

Freix





[Edited by Bfair on Jun 25th, 2003 at 02:34 PM]
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 06:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 508
Thumbs up TIME!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry
Tim,
You must have gone after me. I'm sure they're trying to conserve time and words nowadays. "Time" is a good call. Much preferred to "Foul"; and doesn't cause any confusion.

Hopefully the "newbies" will understand the difference.

Jerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Friend of mine went to pro school and related same to me bout 6 or 7 years ago. Been using it since. Last week, working a PONY game, HBP, I calls "TIME". Br stops dead in tracks after starting to first, looks bewildered and says"Time, for what??" "For you to go to first!" F2 was rolling after this one, I was kinda smart-assy bout it;o
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2003, 10:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1
Huh?

It makes no difference of the position of the runner's FEET at the time that the ball is touched a second time. It only matters where the contacted body part is in relation to fair/foul territories when contact is made. For instance, if his feet are both still in as he bigins to move down the line, but the ball comes back and hits him in the chest out over fair territory, he is out.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2003, 11:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
Slippy writes: "Huh? It makes no difference of the position of the runner's FEET at the time that the ball is touched a second time."


Huh?
__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2003, 11:44am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
As usual, people are focusing on the mechanic Peter used rather than the actual question asked.

I personally don't care what the BU yells -- Time OR Foul. If a normally batted ball strikes the batter in the box it's pretty obvious it's foul. Who cares?

But this call has me thinking -- I normally default to calling this a foul ball. I mean, I just don't think my timing and tracking of the pitch allows me to get such a good view of this play that I can definitely tell someone that one foot is in and one foot is out. If the batter is possibly in EITHER box, I'll call it foul and bring the batter back to hit.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2003, 06:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 508
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
As usual, people are focusing on the mechanic Peter used rather than the actual question asked.

I personally don't care what the BU yells -- Time OR Foul. If a normally batted ball strikes the batter in the box it's pretty obvious it's foul. Who cares?

But this call has me thinking -- I normally default to calling this a foul ball. I mean, I just don't think my timing and tracking of the pitch allows me to get such a good view of this play that I can definitely tell someone that one foot is in and one foot is out. If the batter is possibly in EITHER box, I'll call it foul and bring the batter back to hit.

Rich
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~``
Me too, Rich. It is very tough to see 99.9 percent of the time, the ones you would , very obvious int's. Onto BU yelling FOUL, I'd rather have TIME called if he saw sumpin that I could possibly be prossesing as an INT call....BU pops a FOUL and I pop a Thats Int, we gonna catch it. Rather be safe than thrashed....:O
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2003, 03:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
HHH Wrote:

The relevent text on this matter is contained in JEA under rule 6.05g. Any fair ball that strikes a BR causes the BR to be declared out. In or out of the batters box does not matter. Keep in mind that 80-90% of the batters box is in foul territory, but under the rule if a player was crowding the plate and forward in the box, a ball hit off of his left ankle (OWWWW) would cause him to be declared out. The left ankle, in this situation, would be in fair territory.

Now, no umpire that I know would call this an out. Furthermore, the JEA has a note to umpires from 1942 which strongly encourages them to call this foul.

The key to your Big Dog's decision here is that it was a BUNT. Had it been a normal swing, it would be unlikely that the batter could leave the batter's box before being struck by the ball over fair territory. It would all happen too quickly.

The usual interpretation is that a batted ball becomes a fair ball when it is first touched while on or over fair territory. Even if it is the batter who does the touching, it only matters where the ball was in relation to fair territory - whether fair or foul - when that occurs.

OTOH, the pro's have always taught that the benefit of any doubt should go to the batter IF he was wholly inside the batter's box when struck by the ball. THAT is the origin of your 1942 JEA note AND, coincidentally, your Big Dog's valid interpretation. Once the batter stepped out of the batter's box after hitting the BUNT then he forfeited his protection from being struck by the fair batted ball and so should be declared out.

So in your alternative scenario, where the ball strikes the batter in fair territory but INSIDE the batter's box, the benefit of the doubt will go to the batter. Because foul lines don't continue through the batter's box, umpires can't reliably judge fair/foul inside, and at the front of, the batter's box area.

Bottom line: If the bunted ball was on or over fair territory when the batter was struck by the ball, and the batter was NOT wholly within the batter's box at that time, that's an out by rule. Most would consider the batter still in the box so long as both feet remain grounded on or within the lines of the box. Extra leeway is also given between the box and the plate because in practice those lines are the first to be erased by batters who are taking their stance.

All the same, if your batter had one foot entirely on the ground outside the batters' box when struck by a fair batted ball over fair territory outside the batter's box after hitting a BUNT, then he's out under OBR 6.05(g) or the NCAA equivalent.

Here is JEA's Customs and Usage for Rule 6.05(g):
    Customs and Usage: Professional umpires try to scrutinize the exact feet location of the batter when a drag bunt is attempted. In most all other situations in which the batter is hit with his fair batted ball, the ball is ruled "foul" if the batter is still within the confines of the batterÂ’s box.
Hope this helps.

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jun 29th, 2003 at 04:04 AM]
__________________
Warren Willson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1