OBS then INT

[Welpe]

For Fed, the closest citation I am able to find is 8.3.2 Situation H which has a runner rounding third being obstructed and then the BR interfering with the play at first. The ruling's first sentence is this "The umpire shall deal with obstruction and then interference, since this is the order in which the infractions occurred."

Since the rules do not specify that interference supersedes obstruction, I'd enforce this play as if R2's interference was that of a runner that had already scored.

For OBR, I'd have to check J/R which is at home.

[jicecone]

Thats they way I have always undrstood it. Enforce in the order of the infractions unless the rules state otherwise.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Thats they way I have always undrstood it. Enforce in the order of the infractions unless the rules state otherwise.

Sure, enforce in order. But the question is: do you agree that the award for OBS "trumps" the penalty for INT?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sure, enforce in order. But the question is: do you agree that the award for OBS "trumps" the penalty for INT?

On the field, I'd enforce as Welpe posted: score the run, B/R out. That's easy to defend.

But somewhere in the deep recesses of little o'l pea-brain, I seem to remember a phrase that goes something like "... without liability to be put out, unless he subsequently commits interference..."

Maybe I'm just mis-remembering.

[jicecone]

NFHS Def of Obstruction 2-22-1 gives two exceptions, 8-4-2c & 8-4-2d."Does not legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him" or c, "dives over a fielder". But it still doesn't state that these exceptions supersed OBS like 8-4-2e says "MC supersedes obstruction."

Do you agree that the award for OBS "trumps" the penalty for INT?

I don't believe I would be able to support that with a NFHS rule except in the case of MC.

As already pointed out and in "The Usual Suspects" 2004 by Carl Childress he points out this exact play. Then, he stated that you are to "Penalize first the obstruction then the interference", for both NCAA and NFHS. Until there is better guidelines I guess we go with prescedence.

I'm up for learning something new though.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jicecone

As already pointed out and in "The Usual Suspects" 2004 by Carl Childress he points out this exact play. Then, he stated that you are to "Penalize first the obstruction then the interference", for both NCAA and NFHS. Until there is better guidelines I guess we go with prescedence.

I'm up for learning something new though.

It's not an issue of precedence. I know we penalize the infractions in the order of occurrence. The problem is WHAT'S THE PENALTY FOR THE INT? Score the run and call out the BR or cancel the run and call out R2?

FED rules list several infractions that supersede OBS, including MC and diving over a fielder. They neither include nor exclude INT. What about INT?

[David B]

I don't think you can cancel the run because of the interference. I think you would go for the out, which would be the BR in this play.

If there were other runners, I would think you would call out the runner closest to home.

I'm thinking about the rule that you can call a double play when the runner interferes at second etc., ; however, in those plays you don't have the obstruction to deal with which in FED is an automatic base.

Thanks
David

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sure, enforce in order. But the question is: do you agree that the award for OBS "trumps" the penalty for INT?

yes

You may think by scoring the run doesn't penalize for the INT, but where would the penalty be for the OBS?

In the op, R2 scores during a live ball after an OBS call, not an award of home
due to the OBS. Score the run, BR/R1 is out.

As for your follow up question if R2 interferes before touching HP it would have most likely been a play on him therefore the ball would have become dead. So, R2 is out and we have R1.

[cookie]

Originally Posted by Welpe

For Fed, the closest citation I am able to find is 8.3.2 Situation H which has a runner rounding third being obstructed and then the BR interfering with the play at first. The ruling's first sentence is this "The umpire shall deal with obstruction and then interference, since this is the order in which the infractions occurred."

Since the rules do not specify that interference supersedes obstruction, I'd enforce this play as if R2's interference was that of a runner that had already scored.

For OBR, I'd have to check J/R which is at home.

For Fed, I'll go along with what Welpe has posted.

For OBR, I had something somewhat similar happen to me in a "controlled game" play at the Umpire School, and I was told that the INT trumped the OBS. I'm not sure if my situation applies in this OP situation.

R1 and a base hit to right field: R1 was obstructed by F3, so I signaled OBS. R1 headed without hesitation to 3rd and as the ball was coming in, R1 stuck his hand out to deliberately deflect it. (The throw would have put him out at 3rd, but since this was going to be somewhat of a close play at 3rd, I was going to award it to him because of the OBS back at 1st). However, I was eventually told that his INT with the throw negated the OBS, so R1 would be declared out for INT. The explanation was that the obstructed runner still has the responsibility of running the bases legally.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by cookie

The explanation was that the obstructed runner still has the responsibility of running the bases legally.

That's exactly my reasoning. R2, who was obstructed at 3B, must still touch HP, for example, and would be out on appeal for the missed base. Is anyone going to argue that "he was awarded home on the OBS, and so we'll call BR out for the missed base"? That would be ridiculous.

R2 cannot dive over F2 as he approaches the plate. A FED case play calls the obstructed runner out for this illegal act. (Don't have my book here) Anyone want to call the BR out for that one?

The OHSAA official position is to call the BR out for R2's INT, even though the INT happened before R2 scored. Still makes no sense to me.

[jicecone]

Again, I believe for NFHS there is precedence for that ruling however it was established. I believe it is also applicable for NCAA.

OBR, I just don't know.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by cookie

For Fed, I'll go along with what Welpe has posted.

For OBR, I had something somewhat similar happen to me in a "controlled game" play at the Umpire School, and I was told that the INT trumped the OBS. I'm not sure if my situation applies in this OP situation.

R1 and a base hit to right field: R1 was obstructed by F3, so I signaled OBS. R1 headed without hesitation to 3rd and as the ball was coming in, R1 stuck his hand out to deliberately deflect it. (The throw would have put him out at 3rd, but since this was going to be somewhat of a close play at 3rd, I was going to award it to him because of the OBS back at 1st). However, I was eventually told that his INT with the throw negated the OBS, so R1 would be declared out for INT. The explanation was that the obstructed runner still has the responsibility of running the bases legally.

Once BR reached the next base, the OBS is ignored.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

Once BR reached the next base, the OBS is ignored.

Huh? WtF?

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Huh? WtF?

I know!

I originally hit submit reply by mistake, then I had a family situation come up during my edit and just said screw it.

I wanted to add as celebur mentioned and that I find it hard to give him 3rd on a base hit to RF. Unless BR was knocked down, it sounds like he was nailed at 3rd and needed to interfere since it was "somewhat of a close play".

[cookie]

thumpferee: "...I wanted to add as celebur mentioned and that I find it hard to give him 3rd on a base hit to RF. Unless BR was knocked down, it sounds like he was nailed at 3rd and needed to interfere since it was "somewhat of a close play"..."

I am remembering more clearly now (the play did happen 3 months ago). I believe there was an R2 because I now remember being in the C position. The ball was drilled by the field instructor out into the right/center gap. As the appointed BR rounded 1st, he was OBS by F3 (not knocked down - this was a "controlled play" afterall). The BR continued without hesitation all the way toward 3rd. About 6 feet short of 3rd, he intentionally stuck his hand out to deflect the bouncing ball away from F5 (no player is going to stick his hand out at a thrown bullet). I was going to give him 3rd because of the OBS at 1st, but I was told (PBUC - OBR) that the INT negated that OBS for the reason I already mentioned in my previous post:

...the obstructed runner still has the responsibility of running the bases legally.