8.3.2.k

[Sco53]

F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges toward the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking him to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while the runner is short of first base or (b) after the runner has contacted first base.
RULING: (a) Obstruction; (b) legal

Any ideas why the rulings are different?

[Richvee]

Originally Posted by Sco53

F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges toward the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking him to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while the runner is short of first base or (b) after the runner has contacted first base.
RULING: (a) Obstruction; (b) legal

Any ideas why the rulings are different?

I've read this play a few times and I still have a problem picturing how F3 knocks over B1 after B1 has passed 1st.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Sco53

Any ideas why the rulings are different?

Sure, only in (a) does the fielder prevent the BR from reaching the base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Richvee

I've read this play a few times and I still have a problem picturing how F3 knocks over B1 after B1 has passed 1st.

Picture the "wide" being toward foul right field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sure, only in (a) does the fielder prevent the BR from reaching the base.

In b it prevents the runner from going to 2nd as quickly as they would have if the ball is not caught. This ruling is not congruent with the rest of the book.

[Richvee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Picture the "wide" being toward foul right field.

OK. I can see it. Thanks. Given that situation, if F3 doesn't catch the ball, hasn't he obstructed B1 from advancing to 2nd?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

In b it prevents the runner from going to 2nd as quickly as they would have if the ball is not caught. This ruling is not congruent with the rest of the book.

In both versions of the case, F3 possesses the ball, making an advance by the BR unwise. The case is designed to address OBS at 1B only.

I'd certainly consider OBS if the ball got away from F3.

[UmpTTS43]

Not enough information to answer adequately.

[MikeStrybel]

Sure there is. On this ground ball play, the runner will be almost always running through the base, not looking to go to second. On a wide throw (as opposed to an inside throw), the fielder may be taken into a place where his momentum causes a collison with B/R after he has gained the base safely. The latter was not impeded on a ball that is caught. As has been suggested, if the throw had sailed high and wide (or skipped by), and the runner would have likely had an opportunity to advance, you could have OBS.

I once had a play involving just such a throw. The right handed first baseman lunged towards right for the throw from third and caught it just above his shoulders. He windmilled his arm backwards and caught the B/R squarely in the face a half step past the bag. B/R went down in a heap, covered in blood from a broken nose. After the player was removed, his HC wanted to know if his new base runner was going to get 2nd. He did not since there was no OBS. The HC smiled, knowing that he had tried, as he walked away.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Sure there is. On this ground ball play, the runner will be almost always running through the base, not looking to go to second. On a wide throw (as opposed to an inside throw), the fielder may be taken into a place where his momentum causes a collison with B/R after he has gained the base safely. The latter was not impeded on a ball that is caught. As has been suggested, if the throw had sailed high and wide (or skipped by), and the runner would have likely had an opportunity to advance, you could have OBS.

I once had a play involving just such a throw. The right handed first baseman lunged towards right for the throw from third and caught it just above his shoulders. He windmilled his arm backwards and caught the B/R squarely in the face a half step past the bag. B/R went down in a heap, covered in blood from a broken nose. After the player was removed, his HC wanted to know if his new base runner was going to get 2nd. He did not since there was no OBS. The HC smiled, knowing that he had tried, as he walked away.

You're ALWAYS looking to go to second - if you're doing it properly.

When running through the base you look to the right to see if the ball got past F3 or to pick up a "go" from the 1B coach.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Sco53

F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges toward the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking him to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while the runner is short of first base or (b) after the runner has contacted first base.
RULING: (a) Obstruction; (b) legal

Any ideas why the rulings are different?

Was F3 in position to field the wide throw or was he "chasing" after it? If he was in position, nothing. If he was chasing, OBS.

Again, not enough info.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're ALWAYS looking to go to second - if you're doing it properly.

When running through the base you look to the right to see if the ball got past F3 or to pick up a "go" from the 1B coach.

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right. I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right. I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

I didn't say they do step. Not at all. Ever. What I said is that you always look for the opportunity.

BECAUSE: What if the ball had gone down the RF line - you have to be ready to go.

So what then if getting knocked down impeded the runners ability to go to 2B. Then what?

Next time you're at a game and not umping watch the runners.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right.

What? Why?

I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

I think the missing piece here is whether F3 caught the ball. If she did, then the ruling makes sense - if not, we have OBS either way.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think the missing piece here is whether F3 caught the ball. If she did, then the ruling makes sense - if not, we have OBS either way.

The CB ruling says "prior to possessing the ball". That indicates (at least to me) that F3 does eventually catch the throw.