8.3.2.k

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Sure there is. On this ground ball play, the runner will be almost always running through the base, not looking to go to second. On a wide throw (as opposed to an inside throw), the fielder may be taken into a place where his momentum causes a collison with B/R after he has gained the base safely. The latter was not impeded on a ball that is caught. As has been suggested, if the throw had sailed high and wide (or skipped by), and the runner would have likely had an opportunity to advance, you could have OBS.

I once had a play involving just such a throw. The right handed first baseman lunged towards right for the throw from third and caught it just above his shoulders. He windmilled his arm backwards and caught the B/R squarely in the face a half step past the bag. B/R went down in a heap, covered in blood from a broken nose. After the player was removed, his HC wanted to know if his new base runner was going to get 2nd. He did not since there was no OBS. The HC smiled, knowing that he had tried, as he walked away.

You're ALWAYS looking to go to second - if you're doing it properly.

When running through the base you look to the right to see if the ball got past F3 or to pick up a "go" from the 1B coach.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're ALWAYS looking to go to second - if you're doing it properly.

When running through the base you look to the right to see if the ball got past F3 or to pick up a "go" from the 1B coach.

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right. I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right. I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

I didn't say they do step. Not at all. Ever. What I said is that you always look for the opportunity.

BECAUSE: What if the ball had gone down the RF line - you have to be ready to go.

So what then if getting knocked down impeded the runners ability to go to 2B. Then what?

Next time you're at a game and not umping watch the runners.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I didn't say they do step. Not at all. Ever. What I said is that you always look for the opportunity.

BECAUSE: What if the ball had gone down the RF line - you have to be ready to go.

So what then if getting knocked down impeded the runners ability to go to 2B. Then what?

Next time you're at a game and not umping watch the runners.

Rich,

Seriously, it is alright to A2D. I and the Fed rules authors don't call it OBS.

I coach my son's U12 team, by the way. It is great fun and therapy for a hectic umpiring schedule. I wish you a great Spring. May this snow melt soon so we can get out there and enjoy the game again.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Okay Rich, we will A2D.

On this particular play, the collision will undoubtedly take place almost immediately after the the base has been touched - we are talking a half step, step or two at most. I have never seen a B/R make a step towards second on such a play. On routine ground balls to the infield the runner is almost always hightailing it down and through, careful to not turn right.

What? Why?

I don't work ball below the varsity level so I've never seen it. The play you described may happen at younger levels. If so, those umpires can now know what to do.

I think the missing piece here is whether F3 caught the ball. If she did, then the ruling makes sense - if not, we have OBS either way.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think the missing piece here is whether F3 caught the ball. If she did, then the ruling makes sense - if not, we have OBS either way.

The CB ruling says "prior to possessing the ball". That indicates (at least to me) that F3 does eventually catch the throw.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CT1

The CB ruling says "prior to possessing the ball". That indicates (at least to me) that F3 does eventually catch the throw.

Yeah, it implies it, I agree. Since he said "possessing" instead of "catching", I did not assume, and left open the possibility that F3 had to go get it before possessing it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yeah, it implies it, I agree. Since he said "possessing" instead of "catching", I did not assume, and left open the possibility that F3 had to go get it before possessing it.

I read that as saying F3 might have possessed it after it bounced, which would not be a catch in the proper sense of the term. Some folks call this "gloving" the ball.

But I can't deny that the case leaves open when exactly F3 possessed the ball. From the ruling, I'm assuming it was at approximately the same time as the collision.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I read that as saying F3 might have possessed it after it bounced, which would not be a catch in the proper sense of the term. Some folks call this "gloving" the ball.

Michael, J/R says that a thrown ball cannot be 'caught', it is 'gloved', while batted or pitched balls that remain airborn are considered 'caught'. In the example we are discussing, the word 'possessing' is used properly and implies control by the fielder through his hand or glove. The NFHS wordsmiths aren't trying to trick us. It was a Case Book play, not a test question. Look at it again:

"F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges toward the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking him to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while the runner is short of first base or (b) after the runner has contacted first base.
RULING: (a) Obstruction; (b) legal"

The J/R reference is found on page 26 of last year's book.

In the 2011 NFHS Rule Book, page 17 - 2-9-1 Note states the same thing.

We received 8" of snow last night, so baseball is still just a shadow at the end of a long winter tunnel here. I hope your season starts soon and ends well. Best of luck.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think the missing piece here is whether F3 caught the ball.

The question clearly states that he doesn't possess the ball. He is lunging for it when the collison occurs.

If she did, then the ruling makes sense - if not, we have OBS either way.

The Fed rule has already been stated - this is a Case Book play after all. Feel free to disagree with them.

Also, I don't work games with female players.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The question clearly states that he doesn't possess the ball. He is lunging for it when the collison occurs.



The Fed rule has already been stated - this is a Case Book play after all. Feel free to disagree with them.

Also, I don't work games with female players.

I'm not disagreeing with the caseplay and I'm not sure what nit you're picking with the first statement.

Maybe this will clarify... I'm saying the interp posted in the first post does not apply to a ball that is not caught by F3 (assumedly immediately after contact) - but does apply to one that IS caught (gloved, whatever --- POSSESSED immediately after contact).

Are you saying that if, on a wild throw toward right field, if F3 contacts the batter-runner while trying to catch the ball AFTER BR has touched first - and then does not catch the ball, you do not have OBS on F3 when BR sees the ball get away and heads to 2nd? If you are not saying this, then no one is disagreeing with you.

If you ARE saying that, I believe you are wrong - and that the OP's interp is not for this play.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm not disagreeing with the caseplay and I'm not sure what nit you're picking with the first statement.

No nit. I simply reminded you that what I wrote was justified by the rules.

Maybe this will clarify... I'm saying the interp posted in the first post does not apply to a ball that is not caught by F3 (assumedly immediately after contact) - but does apply to one that IS caught (gloved, whatever --- POSSESSED immediately after contact).

Please look at the original play again. At no time do they say that the ball is caught or gloved and that it is LEGAL. They very clearly state that the collision occurs prior to possesion.

"F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges toward the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking him to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while the runner is short of first base or (b) after the runner has contacted first base.
RULING: (a) Obstruction; (b) legal"

If you disagree, write to them.

Are you saying that if, on a wild throw toward right field, if F3 contacts the batter-runner while trying to catch the ball AFTER BR has touched first - and then does not catch the ball, you do not have OBS on F3 when BR sees the ball get away and heads to 2nd? If you are not saying this, then no one is disagreeing with you.

If you ARE saying that, I believe you are wrong - and that the OP's interp is not for this play.

The double negative clouds your question. I am not sure what you are asking because of the way it is worded.

OBS is a fairly easy call to make. The NCAA site has some terrific videos showing players impede runners on wide throws. I recall one being used at last year's meetings. It should still be available online.

[MD Longhorn]

On a wild throw toward right field, F3 contacts the batter-runner while trying to catch the ball AFTER BR has touched first - and then does not catch the ball, do you have OBS when BR tries to go to 2nd base?