Balk Warning

[chris s]

Originally posted by GarthB
"Good Lord, baseball is baseball.

Ah, Mr. Rut. You never disappoint.

The differences between FED and PONY are many and significant.

What is and isn't legal equipment, especially in the case of bats, is different. The pitching rules are different - both in regulations on the mechaincs and pitching time, some re-entry opportunities are different, the concept of a legal slide is different, there is no force play slide rule in PONY, the obstruction rule is different, some rules on runners are different........


I could go on, but looking at your past history, I doubt it would be useful.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
Use my minus 12, or skull cap......

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB


What is and isn't legal equipment, especially in the case of bats, is different. The pitching rules are different - both in regulations on the mechaincs and pitching time, some re-entry opportunities are different, the concept of a legal slide is different, there is no force play slide rule in PONY, the obstruction rule is different, some rules on runners are different........

I did not say there were not any differences. But I did say the differences are not so drastic that it is not doable. Baseball is not football where the "Free Blocking Zone" is entirely differenet from the NF Ranks to the NCAA level. Baseball is still baseball. They still have to hit, they still have to catch and they still have to run. The same priciples for the players and coaches are the same. The rules still do not change stradegy or the fundamentals of the game like "hitting the cut off man," I think they can function with different rules. From a standpoint of doing other sports, the game is not that different.

Peace

[GarthB]

As I said Rut, you never disappoint.


When you have a clue about that which you atttempt to speak, c'mon back and we'll go over it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB

When you have a clue about that which you atttempt to speak, c'mon back and we'll go over it.

Here is the deal, I do not think the players give a damn how many bases are awarded when we call obstruction or when the ball goes into dead ball territory. It is like a college freshman football player worrying about where the spot of the foul is on his holding call. This is not their concern or something they lay up night thinking about. They are more concerned that the call was made and why you made the call, not the wording of the rules and the codes that dictate it. And even though a FED Obstruction might be different than a PONY Obstruction, the kids are not going to mull over the difference like we are. But then again, I remember playing the game thru HS and I could not even tell you what obstruction was when I left HS. I am sure the kids that play the game are not in for that much of a shock. Just a guess, maybe?

Peace

[chris s]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Here is the deal, I do not think the players give a damn how many bases are awarded when we call obstruction or when the ball goes into dead ball territory. It is like a college freshman football player worrying about where the spot of the foul is on his holding call. This is not their concern or something they lay up night thinking about. They are more concerned that the call was made and why you made the call, not the wording of the rules and the codes that dictate it. And even though a FED Obstruction might be different than a PONY Obstruction, the kids are not going to mull over the difference like we are. But then again, I remember playing the game thru HS and I could not even tell you what obstruction was when I left HS. I am sure the kids that play the game are not in for that much of a shock. Just a guess, maybe?

Peace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Your football knowledge is by far your strong point....What position you work?? FBZ, sounds like U to me! Was R one sunny day, kid holds DE after backing up bout 15 yards behind LOS, I toss hankie. My U, (grizzled vet) gets D captain for enforcment, tells himfirst and ten or 3 and WAYYYback there... Pass was completed...penalty declined

[Mattinglyfan]

We play juniors (13-14). As a coach in a league where this is the first time on a big diamond for some of these pitchers, I think it is very important to remember something. IT IS FOR THE KIDS!!!. I don't have a problem when an umpire tells both coaches that he will usaully give a warning before he calls a balk. When I see something I will mention it to the umpire so he can warn the opposing pitcher. Who cares, we are trying to teach these kids to be better players and understand the rules. Let's not forget why we are there.

[Jerry]

Kind of a generality that "we're here for the kids and for them to learn baseball", don't you think? We're here to officiate a game as fairly and impartially as we can; and to administer the rules of the game as they're intended.

Leave the teaching to the coaches. That's their job.

As for "warnings", you tread on thin ice deciding the severity of the infraction. As an example, you warn one team that they didn't stop before coming to "set", but R1 stole 2nd base. The other team fakes a throw to 1st and catches the runner asleep. You've got warnings in both instances?

EVERYONE learns much more from your calling a balk, than by giving a "warning". See a balk; call a balk.

Jerry

[Mattinglyfan]

I can fully appreciate that. I would actually fully welcome someone with that attitude to call our games.
My point is that kids need to pitch right. I see a lot of kids coming up that were not taught the proper mechanics. I would rather have someone warn him and sacrifice an extra base, so he can learn. He if he keeps it up, then he will have it learn it the hard.
Don't let your qeust for the perfect game get in the way of why we are participating in a 13 -14 year old game.

[IHSAIllini]

For those of you who are railing on the warning, understand that when I do local games I don't have a choice- the house rules mandate warnings as I specified. So, see a balk, call a warning. Then, if you see a balk again, call a balk. (Unless it's 11-12 on a new pitcher. Then it's another warning.)

If you don't like the concept behind warnings, don't rail at me about it. Talk to our Board of Directors, they establish the rules.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by IHSAIllini

Something I've always been dying to ask other umpires about. I don't know how many of you use house rules that include a balk warning component, but I'll fill you in as best I can. For the Bronco and Pony kids (11-12 and 13-14) there are balk warnings. For the 11-12s it's a warning per pitcher, for 13-14s it's a warning per team. Now, of course you can't call balks without a runner on base. Or, I've been led to believe this without actually looking up the section in the FED rulebook...but if I'm wrong someone correct me right away.

(Oh great, IHSA is gonna love this, I just passed my Part 1 rules test and I'm already making them look bad for patching me...heh).

So I guess my question is, even though you can't call balks without runners on base, presuming I'm right of course, how would you feel about wasting the warnings without runners? My rationale is that because it's house ball, the purpose is to teach the kids, and it's easier for them to make the adjustment before they're under pressure with runners on base.

What does everyone think?

There's a problem with Warnings

Sitch: R3 less than 2 outs. F1 in wind-up

Offensive coach calls for a suicide squeeze. F1 seeing this gets rattled and in the middle of his pitching motion STOPS.

Now if you give a warning you just handed the defense an Easy OUT which they didn't earn and to make matters worse the defense is rewarded for committing an illegal act.

Here's what I recommend. Do not give warnings so you don't box yourself in

IMO balks are divided into what I consider the "No brainer type" meaning even the occasional fan knows it is a balk and then there are the "technical balks"

It is the "technical balks" that IMO cause the most comotion and this is the area where an umpire can use some game management skills.

Example; FED rules F1 MUST take signs on the rubber or be guilty of a balk with runners on. Even the FED official will not call this a balk on the first offense. What you do is get the attention of one of F1's teammates and have them tell him/her to correct it.

If there is a local league league rule REQUIRING blue to give a warning I would at least amend that statement to say Warnings will be given for "Technical" Violations only meaning you can still call the "no brainers".

Pete Booth

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C


I come from a state that can barely play baseball (because of weather) during the FED season but you can bet a "dollar to a doughnut" that players understand base awards, dead balls, the difference between a FED balk and an OBR balk.

Of course a pitcher is going to know the difference between a FED balk and and OBR balk usually. But when I have a pitcher that does not realize he has to stop at a FED varsity game, it is kind of hard to give him and others credit for knowing the differences in great detail. Better yet to have a kid say, "I cannot break up the double play?" when I am umpiring a FED game.

Originally posted by Tim C

When I played baseball (so many years ago), through even the professional ranks, there were always players involved in the teams that had a clear, precise, and correct understanding of the rules.

Well I do 3 sports. In all of those sports some of the most unknowledgable comments come from players and coaches. One of the reasons coaches in many states are required to take the FED tests too. In football a player at least once a game says to me or one of my partners, "I can hit him on the ground until the whistle is blown." Or when I do a basketball game and the kids say, "is that not over the back ref?" I got another one, "is that not a reach?" Or better yet, the one we always talk about, "doesn't he have to slide?" I have been on this board too long not to here those same comments come from other officials all over the country. So it appears to me that these kids in all sports do not understand, nor try to understand or are ever taught many rules differences by their coaches. But it is not a tragic event for them when they move to other levels to play ball. The same fundamental apply and I am sure they can deal with it. If we can make the transition, I am sure they can. I thought they do that already playing FED Rules in the spring and playing OBR in the summer?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C

I umpire for power and money. I umpire to do the most professional job possible in every game. I am constantly in search of the perfectly umpired game.

Why in the world would I have thought that already?


Peace

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Tim C
The statement by Mattinglyfan:



I umpire for power and money.

Perfect!

[Mattinglyfan]

I am actually talked about balks out of the stretch, Not coming completely set, fumbling the ball when set, etc.