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Old Fri May 30, 2003, 10:38am
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Have a question. I will try my utmost to clearly paint the picture. Would love to hear construction input.

R1 starts out on first upon the hit of the ball R1 touches second slides into third under the "tag". R1 has foot resting still on top of bag. F5 is on top of R1 ball is NOT in possession or control of F5 but is laying on the ground next to R1 leg. Plate umpire (1 man system) is roughly 1/3 way up to third and 2 foot off of the foul line in fair territory (not the best place) calls R1 out.

Most would say that one cannot argue judgement calls. But in order to apply a tag does one have to have control or possession of the ball in order for the umpires judgement call to stand?

When the umpire was questioned on this call as to where the ball was his response was he slid in under the tag. How could the call be made as an out with that statement. Umpire states I do not know where the ball was. Again, how can you call him out?

Let us keep this simple if we can.
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Old Fri May 30, 2003, 10:50am
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Umpires judgement stands. Until he is persuaded that the facts do not support the judgement and changes the call.
In this case you should have ASKED, "Did he tag him with the ball?". Then you could have asked " If the ball is on the ground, did he have control?". If the answers are yes and yes, then you have nothing further to talk about and should continue the game. IF you get a no in there, then you could ask, "How can he be out then?". Then settle for that answer and move on.
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Old Fri May 30, 2003, 11:02am
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The thought or intent is not questioning the judgement call of the umpire which I never do but the poor application of interpreting the tag rule.

I am questioning the means of the tag or in this case lack thereof. The rule of a tag is touching a runner with the ball or with the hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove.

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Old Sun Jun 01, 2003, 08:32pm
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I know a guy who once called a pitch perfectly down the middle a ball, just to make the point that he could. Now, I wouldn't recommend making a habit of displays of umpire power, but the point he got across is an important one. The call was made the way it looked to PU - no need to justify it in any way. Let the fans and armchair umps worry about that over beers later.
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2003, 10:26pm
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You wouldn't be having this discussion if the umpire making the decision waited for the defensive player to show him the ball before making his call. Secondly, if you are not sure you can not call the guy out.
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2003, 02:13am
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from the statement the umpire made...oops! there is some info i would have liked to had though. did the fielder show his glove as if he had the ball, or did he leave the glove near the ground? me working...if he holds up a glove and the ball could be well concealed...i may call an out, but you bet i'll change it as soon as i see him pick up the ball! if he leaves the glove on the ground...i'll move around the "commotion" looking for the ball as well as ask for it. i did that once and after i asked the fielder looked down, picked it up with the throwing hand and...showed it to me...SAFE!
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2003, 01:51pm
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Thumbs up SHOW ME THE BALL !

Was taught to ask this question in a clinic many years ago. And there is only one time when you ask it... The umpire feels the tag was good (in time to call an out) but feels uncertain as to control of the ball.... if the player comes up with the ball securely controlled, then the umpire must call an out.

In the original scenario stated by OhioGray, the umpire was obviously confused and employed poor timing in making his judgement. Hesitating and asking to see the ball would have solved his problems and led to getting the call correct without creating any confusion.

Just words of wisdom for the uninitiated... some only learn by "Trial by fire."
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2003, 02:29pm
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"Most would say that one cannot argue judgement calls."

Obviously this doesn't apply to you. Face it the ump blew the call and didn't know how to admit it. Deal with it.
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Old Thu Jun 12, 2003, 07:32pm
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This actually happened in MLB

and I wish I could remember the player (I've got the reference at home)

The runner slid into home plate and was tagged by the catcher. The umpire called him out. The runner said, "If I'm out, what's this?" and reached under himself to pick up the baseball, where it was lying after the catcher had dropped it. The umpire reversed his call and declared the runner safe.
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Old Fri Jun 13, 2003, 12:06am
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"Would love to hear construction input."

Always hire licensed and bonded contractors.
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