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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 10:34am
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"Every dollar you take is a dollar taken away from a child that may not be able to afford to play."

And the money I selfishly spent on a DVD player could have gone to feed starving children.

Every youth league I was ever associated with had provisions to accommodate kids who couldn't pay.

I saw people take unfair advantage of that policy, too. I'm not saying it's representative, but just as one outrageous example: one kid's father claimed he couldn't afford the $15 fee for our soccer league, so naturally we let the kid play for free. The father was arrested a few months later in an undercover drug sting operation. He had $1,800 in cash on him.

Do the sporting goods companies donate the uniforms and equipment to LL? When a player gets hurt, does the hospital treat him for free? Does Exxon give parents gasoline to drive to LL games? Does the utility company give away the electricity to light the parks?

Volunteerism and philanthropy are fine, and if leagues want to require parent involvement that can take the form of officiating, that's up to them. But let's not pretend that umpires are somehow obliged to give away their services.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 11:15am
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And the score is...

Mick and Cast: 6

Striker: 0


By the way, I'm with the cast of Mick!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 11:33am
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Exclamation WOW!

No wonder we have such a lack of community in our neighborhoods. I really didn't think I would get such a backlash on this issue. Little League is an organization that provides an opportunity for ALL kids to be able to play. It is a non-profit organization set up to benefit our community. Why should we pay umpires when coaches, managers, fund-raisers, concession workers, board members, and other volunteers aren't getting paid? What makes umpires so high and mighty that their services are worth more than others?

The local league provides adequate equipment for volunteer umpires that cannot afford their own. And, they do not expect complete attire for umpires just starting out. When complete attire is required, leagues, when asked, will assist umpires in completing that requirement (for tournaments, playoffs, etc.).

Umpires are no better than anyone else. What happened to giving something to the community in which you live? BTW, I purchase my own equipment and attire. When I upgrade or replace, I donate to my local league or sell it at a reduced price to umpires just starting out so they won't have to spend so much to begin with.

You guys make it sound like umpires are special and should be treated differently than the other people volunteering in the organization. They aren't. If you want to get paid, don't do Little League. If you want to volunteer your time to a worthy organization, then do Little League. If a league sets up a fee schedule in opposition to the statement in the rule book, then step up, return the fee, or donate it.

Greymule, you sound like my kids. So what? Somebody cheated. That makes it okay for me not to assist the less fortunate. When those types of programs are available, someone will find a way to cheat it. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Of course not.

Our communities would be much better off if we had MORE volunteers of goods and services. I can see from the responses on this thread the very reason we do not. Greed.
People EXPECT payment every time they perform a service for their community. People aren't community oriented anymore. This is why we are seeing declining memberships in service organzations like the Lion's Club, the Moose Lodge, Shriners, the Rotary Club, etc.

I don't expect an answer, and I don't want one. It is none of my business. But, ask yourself, what do I do that benefits my community on a volunteer basis? If you are involved, great! If not, why not?

Soap Box, once again, vacated.

(Gosh, you guys really know how to get me going...)

BTW, I really do appreciate everything I learn from all of you.. Thank you. This board allows great discussions of some very interesting topics, and the differences of opinion sure makes one think of all the viewpoints!





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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 12:05pm
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Re: WOW!

Quote:
Originally posted by Striker991
No wonder we have such a lack of community in our neighborhoods. I really didn't think I would get such a backlash on this issue. Little League is an organization that provides an opportunity for ALL kids to be able to play. It is a non-profit organization set up to benefit our community. Why should we pay umpires when coaches, managers, fund-raisers, concession workers, board members, and other volunteers aren't getting paid? What makes umpires so high and mighty that their services are worth more than others?

The local league provides adequate equipment for volunteer umpires that cannot afford their own. And, they do not expect complete attire for umpires just starting out. When complete attire is required, leagues, when asked, will assist umpires in completing that requirement (for tournaments, playoffs, etc.).

Umpires are no better than anyone else. What happened to giving something to the community in which you live? BTW, I purchase my own equipment and attire. When I upgrade or replace, I donate to my local league or sell it at a reduced price to umpires just starting out so they won't have to spend so much to begin with.

You guys make it sound like umpires are special and should be treated differently than the other people volunteering in the organization. They aren't. If you want to get paid, don't do Little League. If you want to volunteer your time to a worthy organization, then do Little League. If a league sets up a fee schedule in opposition to the statement in the rule book, then step up, return the fee, or donate it.

Greymule, you sound like my kids. So what? Somebody cheated. That makes it okay for me not to assist the less fortunate. When those types of programs are available, someone will find a way to cheat it. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Of course not.

Our communities would be much better off if we had MORE volunteers of goods and services. I can see from the responses on this thread the very reason we do not. Greed.
People EXPECT payment every time they perform a service for their community. People aren't community oriented anymore. This is why we are seeing declining memberships in service organzations like the Lion's Club, the Moose Lodge, Shriners, the Rotary Club, etc.

I don't expect an answer, and I don't want one. It is none of my business. But, ask yourself, what do I do that benefits my community on a volunteer basis? If you are involved, great! If not, why not?

Soap Box, once again, vacated.

(Gosh, you guys really know how to get me going...)

BTW, I really do appreciate everything I learn from all of you.. Thank you. This board allows great discussions of some very interesting topics, and the differences of opinion sure makes one think of all the viewpoints!





I understand your point of view in regard to volunteering to help the youth and the community. I just think you misunderstand the comments made, or maybe I do.

IMO, Lil' League is not just a community level program which involves ALL volunteers. It is a set of rules which baseball is played under. Not all Lil' League Programs are on a volunteer basis. I personally don't agree with Volunteer Officiating. The flack and heartache you receive by trying to offer a service to the kids and to the community are NOT appreciated by most parties (meaning coaches, parents) involved. Quality officials do their homework and strive to be the best and do the best they can and, IMO, deserve to be compensated. If it were simply a volunteer association, have a parent come out in their jeans and yankees shirt and call balls/strikes, outs/safes.

I see nothing wrong with Officials getting paid for providing a service which helps to educate youth in the rules of baseball, represent the game with professionalism, and enforce the rules of the game with integrity, honesty, and commitment.

I want to add one more thing, we don't get paid THAT much!!
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 01:11pm
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Cool ...no winners and no losers in Little League

Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
And the score is...

thumpferee,
If we wanna keep score, this is discussion becomes a tie.
For me, what Striker991 says is almost exactly how I personally feel.
The only disagreement I have with anything Striker991 said (aside from the mis-assumptions), was the "should not get paid" and the "should volunteer" implications.

I like keeping that on an individual plane. Some umps work for bread (white,wheat,rye or maybe "freedom bread" ) some work for fun, some work for both. I just prefer to make my own choice and to allow others to do the same.
mick
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 01:14pm
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Wink I think you are taking this volunteer thing too far.

Striker991,

It is great back to give to the community. It is great to want to help others. But LL Baseball or any baseball league is not the most important thing in life. I see many more issues that we can help in the community, and sports is not what I personally have in mind. Often times the kids that are playing them are more previledged anyway. Baseball is not a cheap sport to get into. At the very least you have to buy a glove (which are not cheap), baseball shoes and it helps if you buy a bat as well. So many of the kids parents are not struggling. That is one of the reason I do not see kids from the worst areas playing baseball at the level you see the middle class kids to upper middle class kids. So it is not like these organizations are struggling to pay umpires maybe $30 for one game. Not when you are paying the park to just hold the games in the first place.

And this idea of organizations like the Lions Club not paying member is a joke too. My Mother happen to be the Local Chapter President and had to pay a membership fee to join, they had to pay a site to hold their meetings and had to pay anyone that provided food for the meetings or banquets that they have. It is not like the local VFW said, "you are a volunteer organization, we are not going to charge you for our catering services." That I am sure never happen. But we can all dream can't we?

BTW, I do not believe anyone hates you for your opinion, we just disagree with your point of view on it. So I do not think their is a backlash, we just see it a different way. And because many LL organizations are making local decisions with local challenges, if you can find umpires that do not want to get paid to work your league, that is great. But there are many areas that would never do it for free. Especially when they can go somewhere else and umpire for some kind of money. I also think you might allianate younger umpires by suggesting they they do it for free. I do not know too many 20 year olds that can give $300+ and not see anything come back to them at all. This is one of the reason we have a huge shortage in umpires in my area.

Peace
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 07:08pm
JEL JEL is offline
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I agree mick, each region should decide, LL is not in my area, so I can only speculate as how it works. I did watch the LL World Series on ESPN, and you cant make me believe money didn't change hands, and some one in the LL orginization makes a living through LL. It can't be 100% volunteer. If at the local level, if all volunteer works, that would be great. My UIC has been after me for a couple of years now, umpires are hard to entice. In my case money was NOT the incintive, but it is nice. I could work the same hours at Wal-Mart part time, and make much more money! If money was the issue, I would shoot for the NL !
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 07:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
And the score is...

Mick and Cast: 6

Striker: 0


By the way, I'm with the cast of Mick!

Me too!!
Little League Umpires and all other youth league rec sports officials get paid in my area as well.
Some keep it, some donate it.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 08:28pm
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So "greed" applies to people who want to be paid for the goods and services they deliver. Perhaps these people give generously to charities of their own choosing, but they're greedy if somebody else thinks his own cause is entitled to free goods and services from them.

Well, why not? "Greed" already applies to people who object to having half their annual income confiscated, or who make more money than social engineers think is appropriate, or who don't give to panhandlers because they believe the money will go to drugs or booze, or who think that foreign aid that goes to line the pockets of third-world dictators is a waste.

Striker, if you belong to a LL organization and you want to donate your services, that's great. Naturally, if the organization requires that every member volunteer in some way and you choose umpiring, that's entirely up to you and them.

But I don't believe that an organization should expect somebody from the outside to work for nothing. It reminds me of years ago, when I owned a reasonably successful retail store, and people would come in and say, "I'm with [a religious organization, a charity, the Help-the-Poor Alliance, the Police Widows and Orphans Fund, the Save-the-Silverfish Foundation, etc.], and our cause is wonderful, so we'd like to purchase things from you with you not making any profit."

Incidentally, I umpire several charity games every year, usually as a favor to a friend. But I choose my own charities.

What I take issue with is (1) the tired depression-era argument that when somebody makes money, he somehow deprives someone else, and (2) the idea that people who act in their own self-interest, or who do not donate to somebody else's favorite charity, are greedy. Even the bleeding hearts I know have given up on those.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 10:14pm
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Cool Last reply....then I'm done

Jel:
Umpires that do post-season work including district all the way to the LL World Series are volunteer and may not participate at that level if they have accepted pay for LL games. They may get paid for other games, but not LL.

Greymule:
I never said that you had to provide services to Little League. I do not demand that. All I am saying is that if you choose to, it should be volunteer. And, I am also not saying that Little League is more important than other charitable organizations. All I am saying is that if you choose to contribute, it should be on a volunteer basis. Little League is a worthy organization. If you choose other worthy organizations, good for you, and good for your community. Little League is designed to be a volunteer organization at the local level, as stated in their rule book.
I don't know what you do for a living. For all I know, you may just umpire. That's fine. But, say you are a warehouseman. Your local food bank needs volunteers to make it work. You choose to assist them in running their warehouse during your off hours. Do you think they should pay you because of your training, expertise, and time involved? Same thing.

One more time for all, then I am done. Little League umpires should be volunteer. Local leagues are set up to provide equipment, training, and attire when necessary to their umpires that do not have or cannot afford their own. I do not expect, nor do I demand, that umpires from paid associations donate their services to Little League. However, if they choose to, then it should be on a volunteer basis only.

And, I stand by my statement that a major cause of lack of community in our country is greed. Many people choose not to support their communities if it means they won't get paid. That's too bad, and very sad.

Soap Box, on this thread, permanenty vacated.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 10:20pm
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Re: Last reply....then I'm done

Quote:
Originally posted by Striker991
Umpires that do post-season work including district all the way to the LL World Series are volunteer and may not participate at that level if they have accepted pay for LL games. They may get paid for other games, but not LL.

Actually, Striker991,
For the last two years all of the umps in this District got a game check from District HQ for working the State Tourney.
mick
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 24, 2003, 11:22pm
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Re: Last reply....then I'm done

Quote:
Originally posted by Striker991


One more time for all, then I am done. Little League umpires should be volunteer. Local leagues are set up to provide equipment, training, and attire when necessary to their umpires that do not have or cannot afford their own. I do not expect, nor do I demand, that umpires from paid associations donate their services to Little League. However, if they choose to, then it should be on a volunteer basis only.
Good, and we all have the right to disagree with you. And this is coming from a person that played in LL as a kid and umpired it when I got older and was in college. And LL did not provide the umpires in my area, the local Park District did. And yes, they are and were paid.


Quote:
Originally posted by Striker991


And, I stand by my statement that a major cause of lack of community in our country is greed. Many people choose not to support their communities if it means they won't get paid. That's too bad, and very sad.

And I think it is very sad that you think the only way someone can give back to the community is to do it through LL. I really want to help an organization that only cause is through sports. In my community we have kids that cannot wear cloths to school, and you want me to give money so some kid whose parents drive a Mercedes Benz or any car that cost more that $50,000 so their kid can play a silly game? I think not. I will give to charities that might get someone into college, rather than help them play a game they might not play after 12 years old. There is much more to a community than giving to a kids league. Maybe this is why LL parents are attacking umpires, because they are hiring volunteers that do not know the difference between interference and obstruction.


Quote:
Originally posted by Striker991

Soap Box, on this thread, permanenty vacated.
Now I am off my soap box. But it is not usually off it permanently.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on May 24th, 2003 at 11:28 PM]
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 26, 2003, 08:01am
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ex post facto

Young ump's parents approached me 3 days after our game.
They said good things about how young ump felt.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 26, 2003, 11:26am
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Re: ex post facto

Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Young ump's parents approached me 3 days after our game.
They said good things about how young ump felt.
As usual, you did good Mick.

Peace
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2003, 01:07pm
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There are times when paid umpires are forced upon a league as well because there are no others to fill the roles...

Year after year our local league pleads with parents and older siblings of players to considering upriring to support the league. The response most often heard... You ain't gettin me to put up with that crap for nothin...

So guess what... we end up having to pay for umps from the local board to get games covered...

Who wants to stand out on a field all day and be questioned about everything you do and not get compensated for it?? I for one happen to do it (for free) but if offered pay... you bet... Parents and coaches can be downright mean sometimes and feel that their little Johnies and Janies are the best thing to happen to baseball and how dare you call them out... the pitch was high...

You never hear the parents yell at the coach something like.. you should have never had him bunt... why did you have hime steal??? But every call the ump makes can be questioned....
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