need a ruling

[coach22]

i had a situation last night and want to get some rulings.....batter hits a ball to out field and it goes to the fence....batter goes to secondand intends to stay there...the outfielder throws to third....ball gets past 3rd baseman and hits a player out of dugout (not the on deck batter)...what is the ruling...i say runner is out and it is a dead ball.

[chris s]

Originally posted by coach22
i had a situation last night and want to get some rulings.....batter hits a ball to out field and it goes to the fence....batter goes to secondand intends to stay there...the outfielder throws to third....ball gets past 3rd baseman and hits a player out of dugout (not the on deck batter)...what is the ruling...i say runner is out and it is a dead ball.

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Runner is holding at second and a bad throw to an advance base hits an offensive player out of the dugout, right??? I got a big fat nuttin, unless player hinders the fielder in his next attempt to make a play. Why reward the defence for a bad throw with no play on the runner?????

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by coach22 [/i]

I had a situation last night and want to get some rulings.....batter hits a ball to out field and it goes to the fence....batter goes to secondand intends to stay there...the outfielder throws to third....ball gets past 3rd baseman and hits a player out of dugout (not the on deck batter)...what is the ruling...i say runner is out and it is a dead ball.

Whenever one trys to figure out an answer, in general terms look at the side who erred.

In your situation, the defense erred they made a bad throw and now you want to bail them out by calling the runner out.

Unlike batted balls, on THROWN balls we need INTENT. So unless this player purposely got in the way and hindered a fielders ability to make a play, there is no call.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

You want to call the runner out for a bad throw by the fielder?

On some of the fields I work, that batter would most likely be in DBT when he got hit with the ball. Now guess what would happen.

[Bfair]

If a thrown ball hits a player outside the dugout (who should have been in the dugout) and there was no obvious intent of player to allow the ball to hit him, then I'd leave ball in play PROVIDED the action did not stop the ball from obviously entering the dugout or otherwise going to DBT. If the throw would have obviously gone to DBT, then I'm awarding the runner his bases due based on a ball going to DBT. I'd do the same if it hit a glove, cooler, or chair that was left outside the dugout and interfered with a ball that would have obviously gone to DBT.

Call it a 9.01(c) or 3.15 application, but if the throw would have obviously gone to DBT, then I'm awarding the runner bases due. I'm making the call in accordance with CSFP, and they can protest the call if they don't like it. If that happens, the protest committee can decide what rule and rule number applies.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[tucktheump]

9.01(c) huh, you've got some ball$...

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Coach22, welcome to the board. Hope you will stick around and challenge us with some plays you have experienced. Additionally, you will receive the benifit of becoming more rules knowledgeable.

Regretfully for you, without intent on the part of the offensive player, the ruling in this situation is POOR THROW, live ball, get it while the runner is advancing.

Again, thanks for joining us.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Bfair
If a thrown ball hits a player outside the dugout (who should have been in the dugout) and there was no obvious intent of player to allow the ball to hit him, then I'd leave ball in play PROVIDED the action did not stop the ball from obviously entering the dugout or otherwise going to DBT. If the throw would have obviously gone to DBT, then I'm awarding the runner his bases due based on a ball going to DBT. I'd do the same if it hit a glove, cooler, or chair that was left outside the dugout and interfered with a ball that would have obviously gone to DBT.

Call it a 9.01(c) or 3.15 application, but if the throw would have obviously gone to DBT, then I'm awarding the runner bases due. I'm making the call in accordance with CSFP, and they can protest the call if they don't like it. If that happens, the protest committee can decide what rule and rule number applies.


Just my opinion,

Freix

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Steve, 9.01c does not have ANY thing to do with this! First off, you are gonna let an OFFENSIVE player stop the ball from going dead(and awarding the runners 2 bags TOT) for intentionally interfering? Second, you are gonna start play with equipment/ice chests/ and lawn chairs in live ball area??? So much for a little game management.....???

[Bfair]

Originally posted by chris s

Steve, 9.01c does not have ANY thing to do with this! First off, you are gonna let an OFFENSIVE player stop the ball from going dead(and awarding the runners 2 bags TOT) for intentionally interfering? Second, you are gonna start play with equipment/ice chests/ and lawn chairs in live ball area??? So much for a little game management.....???

It's obvious you need to read my last post a little closer, Chris.

My post dealt entirely with such action interfering with a ball that was obviously heading to DBT less the action of the player, equipment, etc that was left outside the dugout when it should not have been. Chris, whether a ball that is obviously headed to DBT is stopped from doing so by an offensive or defensive player, it still remains obvious where the ball was headed.

If I have dugout with a ledge and the team places their cooler on the ledge (I don't care if it's the offense or defense) which is later struck by a thrown ball, it seems obvious to me that the ball would have entered the dugout had it not struck the cooler. Same if a glove is placed on the ledge, or if a player is sitting on the ledge. If these factors now start extending outward from the dugout into the playing field, it now becomes my judgment as to what I consider obvious or not.

It's also obvious from many of my other posts, Chris, that I consider my position on the field as that of judge to manage the game---using the rules as a mere guideline of that management. I admit often to knowingly overlooking infractions that are technical and where no advantage is gained. I'm not ashamed of that, Chris. IMO, that is good officiating---especially at the amateur level. If you manage your game strictly by the black/white print of the book, then you will build your own wall in your umpiring career.

CSFP is part of umpiring.


Freix

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Bfair
If I have dugout with a ledge and the team places their cooler on the ledge (I don't care if it's the offense or defense) which is later struck by a thrown ball, it seems obvious to me that the ball would have entered the dugout had it not struck the cooler. Same if a glove is placed on the ledge, or if a player is sitting on the ledge. If these factors now start extending outward from the dugout into the playing field, it now becomes my judgment as to what I consider obvious or not.

Ummmm, the cooler on the ledge is inside the dugout, and therefore in dead ball territory. The same with a glove or a player on the ledge. They are all in dead ball territory. That's why it would be a dead ball if it hit them. Only the facing of the ledge is live ball territory, unless your ground rules were created by boobs.

So, where does this end for you Steve? If the ball rolls into a weighted bat sitting in the on-deck circle, and the ball would've entered dead ball territory had it not struck the weighted bat, are you calling it a dead ball?

If you allow objects in live ball territory, then they are live ball objects. No, a ball bucket doesn't have any business being out of the dugout. But if it is, and the ball strikes it, play on my friend, play on. I need a definitive ruling to believe otherwise.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

Ummmm, the cooler on the ledge is inside the dugout, and therefore in dead ball territory. The same with a glove or a player on the ledge. They are all in dead ball territory. That's why it would be a dead ball if it hit them. Only the facing of the ledge is live ball territory, unless your ground rules were created by boobs.

So, where does this end for you Steve? If the ball rolls into a weighted bat sitting in the on-deck circle, and the ball would've entered dead ball territory had it not struck the weighted bat, are you calling it a dead ball?

If you allow objects in live ball territory, then they are live ball objects. No, a ball bucket doesn't have any business being out of the dugout. But if it is, and the ball strikes it, play on my friend, play on. I need a definitive ruling to believe otherwise.

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My point, exactly.......

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
If you allow objects in live ball territory, then they are live ball objects. No, a ball bucket doesn't have any business being out of the dugout. But if it is, and the ball strikes it, play on my friend, play on. I need a definitive ruling to believe otherwise.

FED 1-4 Penalty: If loose equipment interferes with play, the umpire may call an out(s), award bases or return runners, based on his judgment and the circumstances concerning the play.


NCAA 1-15d AR(2001 book): If a pitched, batted or thrown ball touches equipment that is in live-ball territory, the ball remains live.

I don't think it's covered in OBR, but JEA / JR may have something to say on it.

It's only happened to me once, but I chose (and would again) the interp that penalized the offending team. IOW, if a defensive team leaves equipment out, and that prevents the ball from going to dead ball territory, I'd award bases. IF the offensive team left the equipment out, keep the ball live.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
FED 1-4 Penalty: If loose equipment interferes with play, the umpire may call an out(s), award bases or return runners, based on his judgment and the circumstances concerning the play.

As you know Bob, I'm FED-ignorant. From the wording of that rule, it doesn't sound to me like it would apply. Loose equipment interfering with play versus a pitched, batted, or thrown ball touching equipment in live ball territory doesn't seem to me to be the same thing. Is it really?

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

FED 1-4 Penalty: If loose equipment interferes with play, the umpire may call an out(s), award bases or return runners, based on his judgment and the circumstances concerning the play.


NCAA 1-15d AR(2001 book): If a pitched, batted or thrown ball touches equipment that is in live-ball territory, the ball remains live.

I don't think it's covered in OBR, but JEA / JR may have something to say on it.

It's only happened to me once, but I chose (and would again) the interp that penalized the offending team. IOW, if a defensive team leaves equipment out, and that prevents the ball from going to dead ball territory, I'd award bases. IF the offensive team left the equipment out, keep the ball live.

From J/R
"Authority of an umpire: Miscellaneoous duties:

C. Equipment on Live Ball Territory

Fielders gloves (and hats) cannot lie on LBT, including a top step or lip of a dugout that is LBT. Catchers in the bullpen cannot allow their mask or mitt to lie unattended in the open on LBT; unattended equipment is allowed in a LBT bullpen, but should be placed beneath the bench. Bats and accessories used on the on-deck circle should be localized and minimized in number during a team's at bat, and removed to the dugout(or other DBT) while that team is on defense.

There is not interference (assuming no intent) if a live ball strikes or touches equipment on LBT. Also, there is no interference if a fielder is unable to make a play due to contact with an inadvertently placed piece of equipment on LBT. However if a ball strikes a piece of equipment that is on LBT (usually the lip or top step of the dugout), and such ball would have entered DBT absent the contact with such equipment, then the ball is considered to have entered DBT."

[Jim Porter]

Cool. Thanks for posting that mick. I stand corrected. You learn somethin' new every day.