Crew Conference-Obstruction

gsf23 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 08:13am

Happened during the Cubs-Giants game last night. Giants batting R1 at first. Batter attempts to sacrifice bunt up the first base line. Pitcher comming over to the line tries to scoop the ball and tag the runner all in one motion. As he tries to scoop, he misses the ball and knocks it across the first base foul line and continues to go after it, running into the batter-runner going to first. Batter runner stumbles and gets thrown out at first by the pitcher.

The original call was out at first. Alou comes out to argue, the crew gets together and cancels the out and awards first to the runner, I guess ruling obstruction on the pitcher. Took about 5 minutes to figure out. Anyone else see this and any comments?

thumpferee · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 09:07am

I saw replay on Sports Center this morning.

I was curious to see they had to confer about it though.

The 1st base ump had to see the obstruction. I was surprised to see runner called out at first.

And, where was the delayed dead ball signal from either BU or PU?

Glad they got it right though!

gsf23 · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 09:17am

My first thought was that I thought the plate umpire was supposed to have this call. Isn't he responsible for the fair/foul call up the first base line so he should be looking right at the play. I think the confusion may have been about who was supposed to make that call, the first base ump or the plate ump. Kinda looked to me like they were both waiting for the other one to make the call. At least that is what it looked like as I watched the game last night.

On a plus side I think the announcers for the Cubs did a good job in explaining the play. Chip Carey got interference and obstuction mixed up but Steve Stone corrected him right away on it.

[Edited by gsf23 on Apr 30th, 2003 at 09:20 AM]

thumpferee · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 09:34am

I think the BU made the call on the play, "OUT", then figured we can talk about it afterwards.

I think it would be the BU's call all the way. I think maybe that's why the PU didn't signal anything. The ball was touched by the pitcher in fair territory then booted. The ball should bring the BU to the bag to make the call, so if he was following the ball, he would have seen the obstruction.

I'm sure the PU saw the play though.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it the PU that over-ruled the out call by signaling the runner to first after conference?

Patrick Szalapski · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 10:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee

I think the BU made the call on the play, "OUT", then figured we can talk about it afterwards.

I think it would be the BU's call all the way. I think maybe that's why the PU didn't signal anything. The ball was touched by the pitcher in fair territory then booted. The ball should bring the BU to the bag to make the call, so if he was following the ball, he would have seen the obstruction.

I'm sure the PU saw the play though.

In general, shouldn't obstruction be called by either umpire; that is, whoever first judges it to be obstruction?

P-Sz

gsf23 · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 10:22am

Yeah..I believe it was the plate umpire that signaled the runner to first base after the conference. That's what kinda led me to believe it was his call and not the base's.
Isn't they guy who made the call supposed to make the change if there is one?

thumpferee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 11:11am

The way my partners and I have done it in the past, is, the other will make the call if it is to be changed. You don't want to change your own call, let your partner do it.

If you both come to a conference and you both agree on the call that was made, the one who made the call originally should be the one to confirm it again...safe/out etc.

I just saw the play again on SC. It was the BU that put him on 1st after conference.

Coulda been BU made the call, then went into conference to see if PU saw it the same way. Dunno. I still think it would be the BU's call all the way. The PU could of course make his opinion heard during conference.

It was definately obstruction! PU: Do you want to change it or me? BU: I'll change it...etc

bob jenkins · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee
The way my partners and I have done it in the past, is, the other will make the call if it is to be changed. You don't want to change your own call, let your partner do it.

Absolutely wrong.

This leads to requests to "overrule your partner."

The correct scenario is that the non-calling umpire gives additional information to the calling umpire who "redecides" the call based on all the information.

Quote:

From an earlier post
And, where was the delayed dead ball signal from either BU or PU?

No such signal in professional mechanics.

gsf23 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 01:17pm

I agree there. If a call needs to be changed, then the ump who made the original call should make the change.

thumpferee · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 02:08pm

My last organization really screwed me all up then!

You would think that Florida officials, considering they play baseball 9 months out the year, would know better.

I'm just confused about 1 thing. If a call is made, and the official is not sure and goes to his partner for help, wouldn't that tell you that he obviously didn't see the play or he needs help?

Everyone in the ball park knows he needs help or he wouldn't be confering!

So what is the difference if the one who had a better view of the play make the call?

Bob...

Absolutely wrong

This leads to requests to "overrule your partner."

The correct scenario is that the non-calling umpire gives additional information to the calling umpire who "redecides" the call based on all the information.

And what is the difference there? Everyone knows the wrong call was made if he changed it after confering with his partner....GEEEEEZ

As far as:

From an earlier post
And, where was the delayed dead ball signal from either BU or PU?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No such signal in professional mechanics.

Sorry, I'm not a MLB Umpire. But, that comment was meant to be sarcastic, didn't realize someone would make it a point of emphasis or I woulda left it out!

Largo20 · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 03:46pm

Quote:

From an earlier post
And, where was the delayed dead ball signal from either BU or PU?

No such signal in professional mechanics.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, the only signal would be pointing at the obstruction and calling verbally "That's obstruction" and play would continue until all play would have ceased and no further action would be possible. Then there would be the time call and the umpire would impose penalties (if any).

But in this case, the batter-runner was obstructed before reaching first base. Therefore, the ball is immediately dead and the batter-runner is awarded first base.

I have not seen the play but according to what I read my judgement would be that the pitcher had a play on the ball in trying to scoop it. But since he did not have control over the ball he obstructed the batter-runner in chasing the ball.
We can not call the batter-runner out since he could not figure out that the pitcher would cross him.

chris s · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 30, 2003, 07:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee
I saw replay on Sports Center this morning.

I was curious to see they had to confer about it though.

The 1st base ump had to see the obstruction. I was surprised to see runner called out at first.

And, where was the delayed dead ball signal from either BU or PU?

Glad they got it right though!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
There is no "delayed dead ball" signal in OBR. You have a type 'A" obs play here. "TIME", thats obs, he gets first.That is the proper mechanic. Tybe "B", point to the obs and let the play continue, award accordingly. See, even MLB screws up!

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