Stealing home

[mikek]

Rule clarification:

A pitcher is standing on the mound, but is in no way in any part of his delivery to home plate.

There is a runner on 3rd base and it is a full count on the hitter.

Before the pitcher makes any part of his delivery towards home plate, the runner takes off from third in an attempt to just outright steal home. After the runner is well on his way, the pitcher without stepping off throws to the plate which is not considered a balk but also not knowing whether the pitcher is simply throwing a pitch to the batter or is attempting to throw out the runner attempting to steal. The runner beats the throw home before the ball arives, but the ball also crosses the plate within the confines of the strike zone and could be considered strike 3 to the batter which just stands there.

Does the run count since the play took place before there was any action by the pitcher in delivering a pitch to the plate, or would this still be construed as a pitch to the plate and then be the 3rd out and the run does not count?

[Whowefoolin]

In going to the plate he must either perform the stretch/set prior to delivery, or the windup motion. Anything else would become a balk/quick pitch and allow the runner to advance to home.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
In going to the plate he must either perform the stretch/set prior to delivery, or the windup motion. Anything else would become a balk/quick pitch and allow the runner to advance to home.

A "quick pitch" is "one made with obvious intent to catch a better off balance." I don't read that in the scenario presented.

And, I fail to see any violation of the "windup motion" (or any requiremtn to perform any "motion" while in the windup position).

Based on what's presented, I'd judge this to be a legal pitch, strike three, batter out, no run scores.

[Bfair]

A ball thrown to the plate from the rubber is considered a pitch, not a pickoff attempt---even if such pitch is illegal by not properly meeting the rule requirements thus resulting in a balk.

The pitcher must disengage the rubber if he desires to throw to home to make a play on the runner instead of making a pitch.



Freix

[gsf23]

If he hasn't stepped off, it's a pitch in my book, strike three, no run. The thing that I see happening in this situation though is the catcher jumping up to make a play, probably blocking my view of the pitch, which to me would be ball, score the run.

[TriggerMN]

If the pitcher DOES step off in order to make a play at home, but the batter swings and hits a home run, is the batter out for interference?

[Bfair]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
If the pitcher DOES step off in order to make a play at home, but the batter swings and hits a home run, is the batter out for interference?

The batter would be out if two are already out.
The runner would be out for the batter's interference if less than two out.


Freix

[Ump20]

Originally posted by mikek
Rule clarification:

A pitcher is standing on the mound, but is in no way in any part of his delivery to home plate.

There is a runner on 3rd base and it is a full count on the hitter.

Before the pitcher makes any part of his delivery towards home plate, the runner takes off from third in an attempt to just outright steal home. After the runner is well on his way, the pitcher without stepping off throws to the plate which is not considered a balk but also not knowing whether the pitcher is simply throwing a pitch to the batter or is attempting to throw out the runner attempting to steal. The runner beats the throw home before the ball arives, but the ball also crosses the plate within the confines of the strike zone and could be considered strike 3 to the batter which just stands there.

Does the run count since the play took place before there was any action by the pitcher in delivering a pitch to the plate, or would this still be construed as a pitch to the plate and then be the 3rd out and the run does not count?

This post was originally made in April of this year at a time that I was not visiting all that many umpire boards or websites. I came across the post via a search on Google. I called a balk about two weeks ago on an attempted steal of home. I told the pitcher who had considerably accelerated his delivery (but did pitch from the windup position) that this was a Quick Pitch Last night I got out my Balk Videos Pitching Regulations and Balks by Jim Evans (1999) as well as See a balk call a balk by Al Kaplan (1995) with then Brewers pitching coach Don Rowe. It seems to me that the pitcher can accelerate his delivery to the plate as long as he does not Quick Pitch. I am not an umpire who calls all the balks that I see but I realize that this one is key. Anyone with any clarification on how to handle the steal of home as it pertains to the pitcher's delivery? Jim/NYC

[Bfair]

I think the most important aspect, Jim, is to concentrate on the pivot foot. Know if it's a pitch or a throw. That is, did F1 disengage backward? Did he come forward off the rubber with the pivot foot before stepping to throw? Or, did he merely speed up his delivery motion (which is allowable) and properly step with his nonpivot foot? Of course, all this assumes that F1 is in the windup stance, and the batter is prepared to bat. If the batter is not ready and the pitch is delivered, then you have a quick pitch if F1 didn't disengage.

If F1 is in stretch---a highly unlikely situation where R3 would be breaking to the plate---you must be certain a stop is properly made if F1 delivers from the rubber.

Bottom line, too many variables depend primarily on what F1 does with his pivot foot in his initial reaction to R3 breaking to the plate.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ump20

Originally posted by mikek
Rule clarification:

I told the pitcher who had considerably accelerated his delivery (but did pitch from the windup position) that this was a Quick Pitch

You were wrong. There's nothing against speeding up (or slowing down) the delivery.

And, a Quick Pitch is specifically defined as (something like) "Pitching before the batter is ready" -- it has nothing to do with the runner or with the pitcher's specific motion.

[Ump20]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Originally posted by Ump20

You were wrong. There's nothing against speeding up (or slowing down) the delivery.

And, a Quick Pitch is specifically defined as (something like) "Pitching before the batter is ready" -- it has nothing to do with the runner or with the pitcher's specific motion.

I think you will see that I am aware that the pitcher can speed up his delivery. I should have been more specific that I thought the batter was not ready. Perhaps I need some clarrification on a batter being Ready. I thought Freix gave some good suggestions on this play. My partner, a pretty good college ump, told me again that I got the call right. I guess I am not 100% convinced that I did and more importantly I am looking for some tips from other guys what to look for in order to be better prepared NEXT TIME - Jim

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Ump20
It seems to me that the pitcher can accelerate his delivery to the plate as long as he does not Quick Pitch. I am not an umpire who calls all the balks that I see but I realize that this one is key. Anyone with any clarification on how to handle the steal of home as it pertains to the pitcher's delivery? Jim/NYC

Jim, my advice would be to simply call the pitch on its merits and don't be concerned with anything but the most obvious of balks - eg the catcher stepping out in front of the plate to glove the pitch.

IF you believe there was a possibility that the pitcher stepped off the rubber before delivering the ball, call "Time" and check when the play is over. You can always sort this one out later. Either the batter is out on the strike (or batter's interference - if any - with 2 outs) and no run scores or, if there is interference by the catcher, there is another outcome that can be easily be determined after the following action.

The key issue for the original poster was that the runner would need to have crossed the plate BEFORE the pitcher even commenced his delivery of the pitch in order for the run to count. IOW, the steal of home would need to have been completed BEFORE the pitcher made any motion naturally associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter - defined as the Time of the Pitch.

BTW, if you were ready then there's a good chance the batter was ready too. Most experienced umpires will wait for the batter to be reasonably set before getting set themselves. That way it's easy to tell an illegal quick pitch from an ordinary delivery.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Aug 1st, 2003 at 05:18 PM]

[chris s]

Originally posted by Warren Willson

Jim, my advice would be to simply call the pitch on its merits and don't be concerned with anything but the most obvious of balks - eg the catcher stepping out in front of the plate to glove the pitch.

IF you believe there was a possibility that the pitcher stepped off the rubber before delivering the ball, call "Time" and check when the play is over. You can always sort this one out later. Either the batter is out on the strike (or batter's interference - if any - with 2 outs) and no run scores or, if there is interference by the catcher, there is another outcome that can be easily be determined after the following action.

The key issue for the original poster was that the runner would need to have crossed the plate BEFORE the pitcher even commenced his delivery of the pitch in order for the run to count. IOW, the steal of home would need to have been completed BEFORE the pitcher made any motion naturally associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter - defined as the Time of the Pitch.

BTW, if you were ready then there's a good chance the batter was ready too. Most experienced umpires will wait for the batter to be reasonably set before getting set themselves. That way it's easy to tell an illegal quick pitch from an ordinary delivery.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Aug 1st, 2003 at 05:18 PM]

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Warren, your last statement here has me thinking....(dangerous, I know..lol) I was taught to stay in "ready" till f1 commences his motion, ie; I am up with hands on front of hips, F1 sarts motion and I go to my set and stop(at 5'8", this is quite quick). Now I have seen guys that get "set" while F1 is still looking R1 back or even taking signs, from the sacks I see some guys sinking...sinking...etc. By getting set too early. I realize it may different for you tall guys.....whats up?????

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by chris s

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Warren, your last statement here has me thinking....(dangerous, I know..lol) I was taught to stay in "ready" till f1 commences his motion, ie; I am up with hands on front of hips, F1 sarts motion and I go to my set and stop(at 5'8", this is quite quick). Now I have seen guys that get "set" while F1 is still looking R1 back or even taking signs, from the sacks I see some guys sinking...sinking...etc. By getting set too early. I realize it may different for you tall guys.....whats up?????

Chris, there are two different schools of thought on that issue:

1. If you get set too EARLY then you'll tire quickly and your game will suffer

2. If you get set too LATE then your eyes don't have time to adjust before the pitch is on its way

I subscribe to the latter school of thought. Game fitness and the double wide stance should take care of the former.

I certainly wouldn't get set until the pitcher is almost ready to pitch - ie. taking signs is way too early, IMO.

OTOH, I sure wouldn't wait until after the pitcher has commenced his motion to pitch either. Simultaneously should be ok most of the time for the windup, but maybe not for the set.

Don't ask me for the data, 'cause I don't have it, but my understanding is that a study was done that found if the umpire wasn't down, set and steady before the pitcher released the ball, then his eyes didn't have time to focus on the point of release and tracking the pitch suffered as the result.

My point was that you wouldn't get set BEFORE the batter was ready, regardless of what the pitcher was doing at the time.

Cheers

[Jim Porter]

When the pitcher starts his motion is when I get set. The timing is perfect for me.

It normally isn't a question of fitness. Even the most physically fit among us experiences muscle fatigue. Spend too much time set and you, too, will experience muscle fatigue. That makes it tougher and tougher to have a consistent head position, especially in the later innings.