Don't You Just Hate It When This Happens?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I read this article on Yahoo today:

Gulp: Napoli says he swallowed tobacco during crash at plate - Big League Stew - MLBBlog - Yahoo! Sports

MTD, Sr.

[MikeStrybel]

As the song goes, two for the price of one:

Long ago, I worked with a tobacco chewing guy I really respected and still admire. He had perfected the juice squirt through his front teeth and out the mask. He would turn his head and the few feet of grass behind him were always brown, though not from a lack of water. He took heat from HCs and groundscrew for years but didn't stop until he was diagnosed with tongue cancer.

I remember when the NFHS rule prohibiting tobacco and tobacco like substances was first introduced. It was a while ago and it wasn't long before an umpire dumped a kid who had a pack of Big League Chew in his pocket. The umpire claimed it was shredded and packaged like the real stuff and fit the letter of the rule. I still find it funny that bubble gum was this umpire's kryptonite.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I remember when the NFHS rule prohibiting tobacco and tobacco like substances was first introduced. It was a while ago and it wasn't long before an umpire dumped a kid who had a pack of Big League Chew in his pocket. The umpire claimed it was shredded and packaged like the real stuff and fit the letter of the rule. I still find it funny that bubble gum was this umpire's kryptonite.

Big League Chew is illegal. It comes in a pouch, is shredded, and even has the word "chew" in its name; obviously it is a tobacco like substance. The guy is just following the rules as written.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Big League Chew is illegal. It comes in a pouch, is shredded, and even has the word "chew" in its name; obviously it is a tobacco like substance. The guy is just following the rules as written.

I hope you're joking, or you're not sure what Mike was talking about.

Funny thing, Mike, I had a partner try to run a kid for having a can of shredded beef jerky in his back pocket that looked like a can of Skoal.

Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I hope you're joking, or you're not sure what Mike was talking about.

Funny thing, Mike, I had a partner try to run a kid for having a can of shredded beef jerky in his back pocket that looked like a can of Skoal.

Tim.

I seem to recall a FED case from 15 or so years ago that indicated that FED wanted this call made.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I hope you're joking, or you're not sure what Mike was talking about.

Funny thing, Mike, I had a partner try to run a kid for having a can of shredded beef jerky in his back pocket that looked like a can of Skoal.

Tim.

Not a joke - neither by written rule nor by what FED has specifically stated. Your 2nd sentence - same thing.

Personally, I might fail to notice such a thing - but I'm certainly not going to jump on or joke about an umpire who did notice and did what we're told to do.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not a joke - neither by written rule nor by what FED has specifically stated. Your 2nd sentence - same thing.

Personally, I might fail to notice such a thing - but I'm certainly not going to jump on or joke about an umpire who did notice and did what we're told to do.

I haven't heard this in Indiana, Mike. I'm not surprised at FED making such an anal rule, but I don't recall reading anything about bubble gum or beef jerky. I fail to see how shredded bubble gum or beef jerky are tobacco like substances. I thought the intent was to exclude tobacco like mint or herbal chew.

I apologize to Cobra.

Are there similar restrictions on bubble gum cigars and candy cigarettes?

Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I haven't heard this in Indiana, Mike. I'm not surprised at FED making such an anal rule, but I don't recall reading anything about bubble gum or beef jerky. I fail to see how shredded bubble gum or beef jerky are tobacco like substances. I thought the intent was to exclude tobacco like mint or herbal chew.

I apologize to Cobra.

Are there similar restrictions on bubble gum cigars and candy cigarettes?

Tim.

There might be.

I'm pretty sure NCAA has a ban on the "tin in the pocket" -- that would apply to your beef jerky situation.

that is, it's not only the use that's banned, it's showing something that some fan might interpret at evidence of use.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I haven't heard this in Indiana, Mike. I'm not surprised at FED making such an anal rule, but I don't recall reading anything about bubble gum or beef jerky. I fail to see how shredded bubble gum or beef jerky are tobacco like substances. I thought the intent was to exclude tobacco like mint or herbal chew.

I apologize to Cobra.

Are there similar restrictions on bubble gum cigars and candy cigarettes?

Tim.

You cant use anything that looks like tobacco.

There is a case play (or at least used to be) where the umpire saw players using tobacco, he goes over and it turns out they are just using something that looks like tobacco and they are ejected. Shredded gum out of a pouch or a tin or jerky are made to look like tobacco

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There might be.

I'm pretty sure NCAA has a ban on the "tin in the pocket" -- that would apply to your beef jerky situation.

that is, it's not only the use that's banned, it's showing something that some fan might interpret at evidence of use.

I guess I can see some reasoning behind it. That doesn't mean that I agree with it though. And I say this because the "can" dispensor/container is used now for many things other than tobacco products. My wife even uses a breath mint that comes in a similar container, and I've seen my boys with bubble gum in containters that have the same shape and size as a Kodiak or Skoal can.

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Cobra

You cant use anything that looks like tobacco.

There is a case play (or at least used to be) where the umpire saw players using tobacco, he goes over and it turns out they are just using something that looks like tobacco and they are ejected. Shredded gum out of a pouch or a tin or jerky are made to look like tobacco

I get that, I really do. But I guess I don't see how bright pink shredded bubble gum can in any way be confused with tobacco. I'm thinking the intent is to eliminate the use of mint and herbal products that DO appear to be a tobacco product.

Tim.

[MikeStrybel]

I asked one our state rules interpreters for the 'pouch of gum' line. He said that when the rule first was introduced, there was no wriggle room. If you saw a pouch in a pocket and it held shredded stuff that goes in one's mouth, dump him. Since then, the stance has allowed logic to dictate procedure. Pink bubble gum is not a tobacco like substance. It may be shredded into long pieces but that does not make it illegal. The container is not the issue either. Seeds come in pouches too and the thought of dumping a kid solely because he has a pouch in his pocket bothers me. I believe that HS rule 3-1p says nothing about a pouch or tin but does focus on the product inside. Bubble gum is candy, at least that's what my dentist says.

I was assigned 3U for an NJCAA Regional almost two decades ago. The catcher for the home team was a stud who used Bandits (don't know if they make them any more). At the start of the second inning, the opposing coach comes out and asks the PU to check the catcher. At the time, the rule only applied to post season play. The PU had never encountered it before and we actually had to go get the NCAA book from my trunk to verify that the rule would be enforced during tournament play that year. It was ugly then but I'm glad to see that players and coaches are smarter. My old partner with the tongue cancer would tell them the same.

I am editing my original post - the above was original - due to a PM I received. To that member, no, you are incorrect. I feel no need to use your screen name here and cause a firestorm of PMs again. You were mistaken and the link below will illustrate why.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArch...-+5-26-03.html

Near the bottom, you will see that the original directive from the NCAA discusses the need to employ logic in applying this rule. Of note are the following sentences:

For example: An umpire sees a player with a tobacco tin in his back pocket. What is the course of action?

The committee decided that use of tobacco and the appearance of tobacco is the same thing. In that case, the student-athlete would be ejected from the contest, provided the can was, in fact, tobacco (some bubble-gum companies have products that strongly resemble tobacco cans).

Tobacco is actually outlawed in NCAA by-laws but was rarely enforced in regular season baseball until 2003. The Rules Committee was so adamant about enforcing this rule that they penalized the possession of tobacco the same way as using it. Further, they cite that bubble gum is not the issue.

In MLB, Brett Butler almost lost his life to oral cancer. He chewed since his HS days and the stories he tells are pretty gross. In an ESPN interview I once saw, he told of how his lower gums were worn away to the point where he could see the roots of his teeth. He had to have a cadaver graft of tissue to close it up after his chemo. You'd think that he'd agree that tobacco should be banned from MLB like it is in MiLB. Nope, he says it is personal choice and against any king of penalty for using it. Wow.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

You'd think that he'd agree that tobacco should be banned from MLB like it is in MiLB.

Not to argue the point, but do you think we should outlaw driving because someone was driving recklessly and died?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Not to argue the point, but do you think we should outlaw driving because someone was driving recklessly and died?

The reason I don't care for seeing it used on an MLB field is due to the message I think it sends to young kids. They see their MLB hero's usng spit tobacco, and they want to be just like them. I know that a strong parallel can be drawn between this and violent movies and video games. I don't really care for those being shown to very young kids either. This is my personal opinion that I don't like it. My sensibilities about personal freedoms won't allow me to lobby to remove spit tobacco use from professional baseball. That doesn't mean I think it should be abolished in MLB. Truth is, the guy two rows in front of Jr. that gets so hammered during the game that he can barely make it out of the stadium upright, sends just as powerful a message.

Tim.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The reason I don't care for seeing it used on an MLB field is due to the message I think it sends to young kids.

Don't limit it to the kids. Adult umpires emulate the MLB guys, too. If Gerry Davis were spitting Redman on the field, how many of you would have that pouch in your left ball bag? I mean, how else do you explain $355 for a fake Nike mask?