How would you deal with this?

[Lotto]

Hi, all. I'm a basketball official who is also a baseball fan. In a conversation this morning, a friend gave me the following high school baseball scenario and asked what the umpire should have done. I'd appreciate any help, with rule references.

Bases loaded, 1 out, 3-2 count. Batter check swings on pitch, umpire rules ball 4. Batter and runners start advancing. Catcher turns around and says that the ball was foul tipped into the catcher's glove. Umpire agrees and calls the batter out. Catcher then tags out the runner advancing from third. After a great deal of thought, the umpire decides his only choice is to rule the runner out as well.

Your thoughts? Thanks!!

[asdf]

The only reson the runners were advancing was because the PU originally ruled ball four.

They cannot be put in jeopardy because the PU changed his call.

Batter out. Runners back to where they were at thd time of the pitch.

[dash_riprock]

Put the runners back. Bases loaded, two outs.

Rule 10-2-3-l.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Lotto

Batter check swings on pitch, umpire rules ball 4. Batter and runners start advancing. Catcher turns around and says that the ball was foul tipped into the catcher's glove. Umpire agrees

While I agree with the rulings above, I wonder how the same umpire first rules it a ball and then decides it was foul tipped.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Lotto

Hi, all. I'm a basketball official who is also a baseball fan. In a conversation this morning, a friend gave me the following high school baseball scenario and asked what the umpire should have done. I'd appreciate any help, with rule references.

Bases loaded, 1 out, 3-2 count. Batter check swings on pitch, umpire rules ball 4. Batter and runners start advancing. Catcher turns around and says that the ball was foul tipped into the catcher's glove. Umpire agrees and calls the batter out. Catcher then tags out the runner advancing from third. After a great deal of thought, the umpire decides his only choice is to rule the runner out as well.

Your thoughts? Thanks!!

Get a new umpire, this guy has no idea what he is doing. It is obvious that he should not be doing HS ball. How he can call Ball-4 and let the catcher change his mind, then having put the runner in jeapordy because of his decision, call him out. ???

I hope it was a scrimage?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree with the rulings above, I wonder how the same umpire first rules it a ball and then decides it was foul tipped.

I was thinking the same thing. I guess I can see a catcher questioning a foul ball -vs- a foul tip on a ball handled near the dirt. Not the call of "ball" though.

Tim.

[MD Longhorn]

There is no chance this actually happened. No umpire who is being allowed to do that level would make a call, have the catcher turn around and question it, and then say, "Oh, ok - you're right. My bad - must be an out then." And then, even worse, allow the rest of the play to stand.

[jTheUmp]

While I'd like to think that no "high school" umpire would do such a thing, it probably depends on the level of "high school" we're talking about. The umpires in a 9th grade game are (probably) lower-level umpires then the ones doing varsity games. An inexperienced umpire doing a 9th grade game might conceivably make a call like that.... I could've seen myself doing something like that in the earliest stages of my umpiring career.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

While I'd like to think that no "high school" umpire would do such a thing, it probably depends on the level of "high school" we're talking about. The umpires in a 9th grade game are (probably) lower-level umpires then the ones doing varsity games. An inexperienced umpire doing a 9th grade game might conceivably make a call like that.... I could've seen myself doing something like that in the earliest stages of my umpiring career.

Even varsity umpires would not be immune to doing this in the right situation. We have a lot of very inexperienced umpires working varsity games because of the dynamics that are involved. I would not put this past a varsity umpire at all. Probably less likely, but still possible.

Peace

[REFANDUMP]

Any umpire who can take a potential walk and turn it into two outs is the kind of umpire I'd like to work with more often !!!

[MD Longhorn]

Wow. Seriously - if you guys are working with umpires who would change their call because the catcher asked them too, I feel truly truly sorry for you and your organization. Even 9th grade.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I was thinking the same thing. I guess I can see a catcher questioning a foul ball -vs- a foul tip on a ball handled near the dirt. Not the call of "ball" though.

Tim.

Exactly. If he knew the ball hit the bat, there's no way any competent umpire would call that a ball.

[pob14]

As Jeff R. knows, in Illinois all you have to do to work HS baseball, even varsity, is register, take the test, and attend a clinic (which does not necessarily include any on-field work).

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by pob14

As Jeff R. knows, in Illinois all you have to do to work HS baseball, even varsity, is register, take the test, and attend a clinic (which does not necessarily include any on-field work).

pob,

You neglected to mention the single most important requirement.

JM

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pob14

As Jeff R. knows, in Illinois all you have to do to work HS baseball, even varsity, is register, take the test, and attend a clinic (which does not necessarily include any on-field work).

I am sure that is the way it is in other places as well if the assignor wants to give you a game. But it must be noted that there are only just over 3000 umpires statewide. Basketball (the main state sport) doubles that in numbers and a basketball assignor can pick and choose who they want to work any game. I am sure about 1/3 of the that baseball number are not regular HS umpires, who only have a license so they can work some local league as the many youth leagues require umpires to have a license for perceived liability issues. So that leaves guys who are not only available at 4:00 or 4:30, but guys who want to work at that time or even decide to work games at all. And with the volatile weather in this part of the state or country, I know that guys that cannot stop what they are doing to work the make-up, so you get a guy that is not experienced or not as experienced to work the rescheduled game. I have worked with enough of those, it is not uncommon.

Peace