LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs.
 

For the second night in a row, the Pennsylvania team loses a hit and a potential run when a fair ball is ruled foul by one of the SIX umpires. I don't understand why they wouldn't let the play play itself out before going to instant replay to review.

I thought they explained pretty well why they wouldn't allow a "foul" call to be reviewed.

Tim.

That they did. The Little League baseball announcers usually do a very good job at that, and much better than your typical home team baseball announcer (and definitely better ANY televised softball announcer!)

If they train them better or pay umpires (who are experienced and have knowledge of their field responsibilities) they might not have to worry about replay on these kinds of plays or doing what the NFL does.

Peace

Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

I can't say all of the umpires I've seen in past years have had little training. Florence Stansbury, the first (only?) woman to have umpired home plate in the LLWS championship game lives 100 miles south of me, and I've had the privilege of working with her in FED baseball. She has also officiating the women's CWS.

(end shameless name drop) :D

I was pleased to see the officiating crew correctly take a run off the board on a bases loaded, 1 out play in the Canada-Venezuela game. Venezuelan batter hit a hot grounder to third, F5 stepped on third for the second out and threw home in attempt to retire R3, but F2 did not apply the tag, apparently scoring the run. However, R1 had retreated back to first instead of advancing to second. The defense, recognizing the base running error, threw to second and tagged (not forced) R1 between first and second for the third out. While the announcers and the Venezuelan coaches wanted the run to score, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was made by a runner before reaching the base he was forced to.

I worked with in my state finals in baseball with a umpire that had the previous year worked the LLWS. Not all of these umpires are terrible, but many of the mechanics we see or basic things are not signs of well trained umpires. This play was a suggestion that either no one talked about basic mechanics or this was never discussed in a training or meeting.

Peace

Or someone simply made a mistake. Unfortunately, with so many poorly trained umpires there, the assumption is that every error is because of a lack of training.

The guy that called foul is one of the top umpires in the Western Region and an instructor who owned his mistake on his blog the next day. He said he failed to follow his own teaching -- to know your responsibilities. Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

You are right it could of been, but there are too many of these mistakes to chalk it up to just a mistake all the time. Every year we see many big time mistakes that do not happen with even the inexperienced umpires in games I see during the HS season.

Honestly I do not know why they use 6 Man on these games to begin with. Too small a field.

I know you are trying to defend the guys you work with, but you are telling me that the current system gets the best available guys working games by making everyone pay their way? That is the best system with national television watching every move and paying for many other things, but the umpires have to pay their way to just work these games? Again, they get what they pay for.

Peace

Agree, there is no need or room to have 6 umpires on a LL field. I can see only bad things happening with alot of uncertainity with calls.

LL has a pretty good training program through their regional centers, but the problem is not enough of the volunteers take advantage of the training. I've been to a half-a-dozen weekend clinics, and have attended their week long session twice. I'm fortunate in that I live only two and a half hours from the Central Region Headquarters and it isn't a huge cost for me to attend the training.

I don't think the mistakes that are made each year at the WS are any more prevalent than the mistakes we seen on the local ball fields each weekend. The mistakes are just amplified exponentially being televised nationally. I also think that we tend to be way too critical on the Internet of the mistakes these officials make in Williamsport. It can't be easy to umpire on national television.

Tim.

OK, I am listening.
 

OK, then what are the problems and what are the solutions? If the training is excellent and people that umpire are perfect, then why do these big mistakes keep happening year after year after year?

Peace

I guess that explains why every plate umpire I've seen this year throws his/her hands up and declares "foul ball" on balls hit directly back to the screen.

You left out the selection process.

U5 and U6 can be quite valuable on adult-sized fields. MLB wastes them by positioning them improperly. They belong behind the outfielders.

IOW, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was a force out.

I agree, that's probably the biggest mistake they make. I know they are trying to reward umpires and allow them to be part of the "extravaganza" that LLWS has become.

However, they end up shooting themselves in the foot every year because it creates way too much indecision etc.,

I'm sure they analyze it, must be what they want since they keep on doing the same thing year after year.

Thanks
David

How do they rule on a sinking line drive directly in front of F7 or F9 if they are behind the fielders? We don't want to have U1 or U3 involved, do we?

I position myself in fair ground no more than a step in front of the fielder with the knowledge I need to be ready to sprint forward in the event of a sinking liner.

They're volunteers. Lets see a hot dog and a coke. $3.00 at the most for working a 2 hour game. That's a volunteer! Lets see free gear the balloon and shin guards that are in the box at the field. A free shirt and hat. The Coaches get that and they're volunteers. Lay off those guys they perform a valuable community service. And no I'm not a "volunteer umpire". I'll donate my services for a charity function but that's the extent of my volunteering. But I do respect the guys that volunteer to officiate games so the kids can play.

This Summer I worked College Wood Bat and a few games using Little League Rules (I got paid) and everything in between. There's no room on a 60 foot field for a six man crew. I don't even see the need for a two man crew. There's no stealing or dropped third. A few steps toward any base and you have everything covered. I did work some two man and the field guy plays behind the fielders. We decided that U1 would handle first and 2nd and the UIC the plate and third. Exceptions to this R1 going back to first UIC would get this and R3 going back to 3rd U1 would get this. U1 also needs to be "ready" handle plays at 3rd if UIC is otherwise occupied. Not sure of the proper LL Mechanics but 15 minutes before the game this is how we decided to cover the field.

I guess this is one area on this board where I am somewhat of an expert, after 33 years of doing LL at levels up to Regional. Plus HS, Legion and a summer league of ex-college and -pro players. I retired at the end of last season.

Some of the WP assignments are actually based on merit, some are international (for diversity's sake) and some are handed out to the Smittys of the world.

It's the latter group that irks me.

These are guys who, for the most part, have worked nothing other than LL. And they've been doing it since the Liston-Patterson fight. They're not members of any association, so there isn't anyone guiding them about attire, comportment, game management, mechanics and the zillion other things we must do in order to hone our skills. In short, they've been making the same mistakes--for decades--without criticism ("But that's Uncle Bumps; he's been in this league for 38 years, so he must be right").

IMHO, the reality is: some of us might have started in LL but realized that the best way to improve is to do "higher" levels. I know quite a few former LL umps who just stopped doing it in favor of "moving up." And yes, the monetary factor enters here. FWIW, I am fully in favor of paid umpires at all levels.

I saw a totally embarrassing sitch last night as MEA played Japan. It was simple: R1, 1 out. B1 hits a hot grounder to F5, who fields it in foul territory right near 3B.

PU correctly calls the ball foul. F5 throws to F4, who "retires" R1. I could not see if U2 made a "call" or not. R1 heads back toward dugout, with B1 standing on first. None of the umps does anything to right this, for about 30 seconds.

Finally, PU comes down the line toward 1B. He looks at both players says (and I quote, because I have DVR!): "Who was my last batter?"

[Could not hear an answer. May I insert a "duh" here?]

PU continues, pointing at B1, "You're at the plate and you," pointing at R1,
"are wherever you were at when the play started."

Just horrendous. But, as announcers love to say, "The right call was made."

I am disappointed to say that I don't think this system will ever be rectified. Every August, you'll see Ole Gramps back there, gut hanging out, looking the way that makes members of this group cringe. As we should; I firmly believe that 99% of this group is truly dedicated to excellence in officiating.

I have a way to fix this, but they'd have to pay me for it. Which ain't gonna happen.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

Ace Holleran
Barcalounger League

I'm sorry, but there IS stealing. I've done plenty of LL games alone, and a steal of second can get pretty dicey.

Ace

No stealing in the conventional sense. You're right though there's stealing.

Everyone one of these guys have a kid in the league? I don't think so. And so what if their kids play for free. They're volunteers IMHO. Like I said I have a tough time coming down hard on guys who are providing a service so the kids can play. Hell I get paid and quite often I'm offered stuff from the concession stand. So I guess I'm getting paid double.:D

I guess that umpiring Little League at an overall loss isn't enough for you (and I did so this year, despite some reimbursements for expenses I received).

I did this community service despite plenty of opportunity to work adult baseball, Legion, Babe Ruth, and plenty of other summer baseball.

Never mind, you're just a troll who will be banned again very soon.

I do not think anyone here has a problem with the umpires, but the system that insists on hiring people that do no more than put on a uniform. They could find or require guys to do more to get to that level. Again, your games are on national TV, not cable access when you get to Williamsport. I am sure the ESPN people are getting paid to be there. Why would the umpires not get paid anything? Not saying you need to get them rich, but respect what they provide to your event.

Peace

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

Sure, maybe Little League hands out some assignments as if they are gold watches for years served (and sometimes those years served are not in capacity as an umpire), but that happens in a lot of tournaments with "prestigious" assignments. It happens here at the HS state tournament level, where one can only shake a head a some of the people chosen.

I'm sure you really didn't mean this as an exclusive "either/or" statement. Certainly you don't believe all umpires who receive compensation are "striving simply to earn a paycheck."

Rich, they get paid in many sanctioned games now. I used to work LL several years ago and every game was assigned by a local park district and we were paid every single game. We were not making a killing, but it was something for our time. And I am not talking about paying them for a pay check to get a lot of money, but you cannot take care of their expenses while they are there and put some money in their pocket for the experience? All that does is eliminate those that would like to work but have jobs, and other obligations to eliminate those to want to work because they have to come out of their own pockets to get to Williamsport. And the product on the field reflects that right now.

You do not have to take away that part of it completely. But you should have people that are trained better. And at least the State Finals has people that are being chosen by a much more extensive process than I ever see at this level. And a state final does not have world wide eyes. Is it too much to ask for the people to not embarrass your organization every year?

Peace

When you umpire on national TV with ~ 40k in the stands, the 'let's not pick on the volunteers' mantra is gone. Doesn't matter how many years you've given to LL, at that level you better be able to perform and take criticism in equal measure. Asking batters while on ESPN about which one was last at bat is horse-pucky.

IMO, getting a free pass in LL umpiring dies when the TV cameras switch on, the Frosted Flakes commercials start blaring, and Nomar starts jabbering his nonsense.

No, that part of the product does NOT reflect that. You're wrong, completely wrong, IMO..

It's the selection process, not the availability of quality umpires. LL will still select the one year veteran 35 times over whether he's paid or not. It's a gold watch (or more accurately, a LL WS Participant medal) for a number of people every year. Paying LL umpires for these games - what will that solve? It will bring people in that wouldn't work the games without that paycheck, that's all.

I did get some expenses reimbursed, BTW, for my trip to Bangor for the Senior World Series. We got a hotel room, 2 meals a day, and my district gave me money to put towards gas for the trip. Yes, I'm still out a considerable amount of money, but I'm not complaining.

It's part of the gig. I make good money officiating other baseball and other sports and it's my choice whether or not I work LL or not. I know the terms. And I don't think the quality of umpires selected would improve if those guys were paid and if their travel expenses were covered.

BTW, I would pay the travel expenses for the umpires if I was king. The coaches and teams all get flown to the tournaments. As of right now, the only people involved that have to pay to get there are the umpires and that part I *would* fix.

And I agree with this. Should I ever be selected to work WP, I offer no excuses for my work and any mistakes I make. I don't want to be called a "volunteer umpire" as if that makes it OK. My calls and my game management must be as good, IMO, as if I was working any other nationally televised game. LL, however, selects the umpires and their selection process doesn't seem to have changed much in the past 10 years (my involvement with Little League is just over 10 years -- I've umpired a lot longer than that). I don't know why we talk about this every year like we expect it to change.

I worked a championship game at a different Little League World Series on an ESPN network on Saturday afternoon. After the first pitch, it was just another game with the exception of the slightly longer than normal inning breaks.

I did not expect you to agree, you are a lot closer to that situation than I will ever be. And if they are satisfied with the guy that has worked 35 years but looks like hell, then so be it. But then they will continue to get criticized by folks here and in the media when they cannot get simple plays right.

In this economy that will eliminate a lot of good people right or wrong.

We all know the terms when we accept games. I have heard you say you will not accept the terms to work other levels in other sports because the overall cost is not worth it to you. That is all I am saying here, they have eliminated people because they have to choose if working that level is worth the hundreds of dollars (or thousands) to work a game when everyone is getting fat off the TV money and sponsorships.

And that is my point. I have to pay my expenses to work a tournament that sponsors are paying millions to the other participants so they can have a tournament. Why not let the kids call balls and strikes if we are so not important in the games? I did not say you had to give every umpire $1000 a game. I said pay them so they do not have to come out of their pocket just to work a game. And because of that there are folks that work LL that have been paid all year long now say "Why bother" in the biggest games of the year for that organization. Something is wrong with that IMO.

Peace

Except that receiving a game fee for Little League is supposed to eliminate an umpire for consideration. It's a question on the application form.

Under the table? Reimbursements for expenses and gear purchases are encouraged by LL. It's what they suggest for retaining umpires. LL isn't saying that umpires shouldn't receive gear or gas reimbursements or uniforms or training or anything like that.

It's not, despite what people think, a vow to take nothing but a hot dog and a coke after the game.

Again, another dumb requirement by LL. When I worked LL back in the day we were not given a "choice" to take money or not. I did not even realize that that "volunteerism" was expected by the LL. In order to work all levels the park district took care of everything and we were assigned to games based more on availability rather than what we choose to do. So when we were assigned those games, we just took them. Also we had taxes taken out of our checks as we would make hundreds of dollars during the spring and summer. No one said to give the money back or to donate that fee. And I do know of a person that has wanted to work higher levels and I am sure he took money at some point. Maybe he does not now, but he had to at one time. And now they are making people lie just to adhere to some silly standard that umpires have to choose to work a game for pay and not get any money. I am sure there are leagues would not get any umpires if they did not pay their umpires. You cannot honestly believe this is the best system for selecting the best umpires Rich?

Peace

I commend the men and women working the LLWS at all age levels. They have put in the time and commitment into an avocation that I'm sure they all love. Cudos to them for getting the opportunity.

That being said, the LL system concerning umpires needs to be addressed. I could care less about the pay v no pay sitch. I would love to see LL provide more training opportunities for the umpires that choose this path in order to make them the best umpires they can be.

I am not a LL umpire. Maybe this is already the case. It just seems that the level of umpiring is not evolving at the same pace the level of play is. If LL is to be proud of their product as a whole, it should include the officials as well.

Part of the problem here is that many of the Smittys we see on the field run the regional ump clinics. What can anyone learn from them?

A friend of mine went to one, led by a wizened WP bigwig ump. He took the whole weekend to read the rulebook to the class.

And on the "pay" thing, I think each league should arrange for their own umpires, paid or not. For all regional and WS tourneys, I think umps should have all expenses paid, including transportation.

As I've said before, many of these "veterans" wouldn't touch a Babe Ruth game, much less a high school tussle.

The upper echelons need more guys like Fronnie: experienced at various levels, but with a subspecialty in LL--knowledgeable of its vagaries.

I agree with the posters who, in essence, say, "It's on national TV, with the best youth players in the world. Why not have the best umpires?"

Ace
DustVest in storage

Was that the game where a LL facebook post had thunder in the area to start the game? Was a lightning detector used? Or was it a fast moving away from venue cell/cells that those in charge judged was not going to be a problem?

Did you miss the part where it's OK to buy the umpires uniforms and gear?

http://www.littleleague.org/umpires/whereareumpires.htm

Keep new umpires’ costs down by supplying some or all the equipment they need. Don’t make them buy a bunch of equipment and uniforms at the beginning of their career.

Provide rule books, patches, equipment, etc., for umpires. Start with a community set of equipment that everyone uses. Then progress to those that return or agree to umpire so many games will get a mask, more games will get a chest protector, etc.

Rich:

Surely you remember the Deej (FitUmp) and his partner Uninterested Ump and their tactics. Reality is futile.

Of course. What amuses me is he pulled his quotes from the same page I'm quoting. Not only is he stupid, but he's also completely dishonest, too.

No, they are not the best youth players in the world. They are the ones who choose to participate in LL and form all-star teams to qualify for Williamsport. There are countless USSSA, NBC, etc. type teams who are every bit as good as the teams in the LLWS and actually play on a field meant for 13 year-olds. (The size of the field in LL is a joke. When almost every ground ball on the infield is a whacker at first, maybe your bases aren't far enough apart?)

There are 13 year-olds locally playing on high school fields during the summer, and the teams aren't even that good. If they can do it, these "elite" teams in Williamsport can at least play on 70 foot bases and move the mound and fences back more.

I just can't get with LL. The way ESPN covers the LLWS, the cheesiness of the whole thing, the dumb rules, the field (already mentioned), and the umpiring just make the whole thing pretty goofy.

To borrow a line... this ties for the stupidest post ever made on the internet.

Some of us see umpiring as more than a job.

Many people volunteer time to, say, build a house for Habitat for Humanity. How many people go up to them and say, "Shame. Builders could be making $30 an hour building this house. Why are you doing it for free?"

Lots of kids can't afford to pay travel-sized registration fees to play baseball. The local Little League is a place to go where all kids are welcome. If you don't want to donate some time to umpire these games, that's fine. I won't hold that against you. But why hold my choice of community service and charity against me? It's my time, not yours.

Bad analogy. Most HFH volunteers are tied to the corporate world and get paid for the time they miss from work.

In addition, if a HFH volunteer cannot perform a task at hand, they are removed from said task.

Little League wants to look "big time" with their prime-time telecasts and all the "feel" of a big time event. (replay, mic-ed umpires, slo-mo cameras...etc) Having substandard umpires makes them look silly.

But then again, they have no problem with showing the whole world that they are silly.

I can only control myself and my small sphere of influence. I worked a game on ESPNU (as in U probably don't get it) this past weekend and I'd challenge anyone watching to think we were a bunch of untrained buffoons. Of course, we only had one game televised and it's possible to hide a few guys (and also disappoint a few others who were quite qualified) when you only have one game shown. When all the games are shown, you have to, IMO, tighten the requirements. BUT...

I don't think the problem improves by paying Little League umpires. You still have a selection process where local DAs make recommendations for regionals and regional UICs recommend umpires (or don't recommend umpires) for WS appointments. I know that everyone was "recommended" from my regional and I get the impression very few, if any, are "not recommended".

Well put.

BU - they may have good training. The difference between LL and other orgs I've worked for is that LL doesn't REQUIRE participation in that training in order to work more important and more visible games. Every other org I'm associated with DOES require such training.

The system is being improved yearly. In the West, in order to be considered for the higher levels of tournament you must attended a week long school patterned after the pro schools (rules in AM, cage work, and field work). You are evaluated in regional tournaments and then recommended. The volunteer requirement is a component of LL that has been around since its inception..its part of the entire philosophy. Just because people want a piece of the corporate pie doesn't make it wrong for LL to expect volunteerism. Can people be dishonest and secure a spot at the Series....sure..but thats on them. If someone justifies it as "stupid" to have to be a volunteer thats fine....IMHO if you dont believe in the program...dont be a part of it....and moreover if your getting paid somewhere else why do you care? Either do your part to improve the system or dont worry about it.

People talk about the "level of umpiring" at the LL level being horrible...I see mistakes being made at ALL levels. People talk about a rating system for umpires at MLB, then when it is instituted, mistakes are made in post season. Its part of the game at ALL levels, no matter how you slice it, paid or not. Its going to take time and people wanting to get better.

What is disappointing is that the level of performance of umpires at the LLWS had been improving. Beginning about five our six years ago there seemed to be steady progress.

This year LL took a step backwards. The performance at the LLWS was the worst in years. Hopefully, they'll take an honest look at what they go and how they got it and do what it takes to provide the teams the best umpires rather than the best volunteers.

The best umpires deserve the LLWS. The best volunteers deserve a certificate and a thank you. Maybe a watch.

The best umpires who volunteer for LL would be more than capable of doing the job. I think the selection process could be improved. I discuss this in the other thread. The problem is that nobody wants to be the person to say, "Thanks for your service, but I simply cannot recommend you for the next level at this time." So umpires gets recommended up the chain and we get people at WS tournaments who are over their heads.