When does a RHP commit?

[Buckeye12]

I was talking to some other umpires last evening and this question arose following FED rules.

Can a RHP, in the stretch, pick his non-pivot foot straight up (like he would in starting his pitching motion), then open up to his left by pivoting on his right foot while still in contact with the pitching rubber (his step turns himself so he is not in violation of the "45 degree line"). His motions are similar to a LHP's "slow" move to first base, but the RHP needs to pivot around to his left.

I know that when I played FED baseball, we were taught that this was a balk; and to steal a base, runners needed to watch this front foot (on a RHP) because once it moved, a RHP was committed to the plate. Now, that I'm an umpire, I've discovered that coaches don't know as much as I once thought, but I am wondering if I was mislead? Rulebook references would be very helpful here. Also, I'd be interested in finding out if this was a balk in OBR and NCAA.

[Tim C]

We face this question over-and-over.

I will make the following statements:

A Right handed pitcher can throw to first base without disengaging. That is, and always has been, legal.

Don't fall for the arguement that a righthander can do anything that a lefthander can . . . that is a false statement. A right hander is limited by the same rules and interpretations that a left handers is IF the lefthander is throwing to THIRD base. Yes, I know that the lefty does not HAVE to throw to third. I am talking about the move you are asking about.

In OBR, according to Rick Roder, the move you have described is considered TWO separate movements and therefore is a balk. According to Rick as soon as the front foot leaves the ground the NEXT movement must be to first base or he forgoes that opportunity.

You can find a discussion about this move in Referee Magazine from a couple of years ago.

Now before this gets too far a field I want to make it clear that this has nothing to do with "jump turns" or "jab steps" this is a simple move that EVERYONE would call a balk if they saw it . . . part of the problem lies in the use of the written word rather than seeing something happen.

As you we were taught "as soon as the righthander's foot comes off the ground take-off" -- while we know that isn't EXACTLY true the play you have described is a balk at all levels (OBR, FED, NCAA).

Let the detractors attack. I have my life jacket on . . .

Tee

[Buckeye12]

Tim, I follow up my first question with this; can a LHP make this move to 3B? Is this pickoff legal, or is this the same as the one I mentioned above? Thanks

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Buckeye12
Tim, I follow up my first question with this; can a LHP make this move to 3B? Is this pickoff legal, or is this the same as the one I mentioned above? Thanks

It's a balk.

IT's been described 1,000 ways -- it's still a balk.

Someone should write a book.

[Buckeye12]

bob jenkins, what do you tell a coach his pitcher did after you call a balk. What infraction is he breaking from the rule book? Or is this one of those situations where you just tell the coach, "He balked, that's what he did, and that's why I called it"? I'm not trying to critisize your interpretation because I would deffinately call this action a balk too, but I'm trying to figure out why it's a balk.

[Tim C]

In one post it gave the reasoning behind the OBR ruling by Rick Roder. Would you need more than that since all you are doing is telling the Skipper WHAT you called and since we do not allow "balks" to be argued do you really need more?

Tee

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Buckeye12
bob jenkins, what do you tell a coach his pitcher did after you call a balk. What infraction is he breaking from the rule book? Or is this one of those situations where you just tell the coach, "He balked, that's what he did, and that's why I called it"? I'm not trying to critisize your interpretation because I would deffinately call this action a balk too, but I'm trying to figure out why it's a balk.

He committed to home.

or

He didn't step directly (or immediately)to first. (This option is more accurate, but longer.)

[tucktheump]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

He committed to home.

or

He didn't step directly (or immediately)to first. (This option is more accurate, but longer.)

Bob,
I agree with you. It's a balk. A right handed pitcher cannot make a move normally associated with his delivery to the plate and then throw to first. This would be considered an attempt to decieve the runner, and is, by rule, a balk.
Tuck

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by tucktheump
Bob,
I agree with you. It's a balk. A right handed pitcher cannot make a move normally associated with his delivery to the plate and then throw to first. This would be considered an attempt to decieve the runner, and is, by rule, a balk.
Tuck [/B]

Pitchers always try to decieve runners, right? There are legal ways and there are not so legal ways; we need to know which moves are illegal and why, not merely that they decieve.

P-Sz

[IntlBlue]

Here's how I've explained this move to an objecting coach:

"Skip, when your pitcher lifted his foot, and didn't immediately go to first, which way did his knee go?" Answer MUST be "toward third base". Then I tell the coach "welllllll, after moving toward third, then he MUST disengage the rubber before he can turn to throw to first" (the ole 3-1 move)"and he didn't, so it's a balk." I've never (in 17 years) had a coach argue further.

It has worked just fine for me in the past. Hope this helps.

[tucktheump]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
[B][QUOTE]

Pitchers always try to decieve runners, right? There are legal ways and there are not so legal ways; we need to know which moves are illegal and why, not merely that they decieve.

P-Sz

Patrick,
Of course, pitchers always try to decieve runners. There are legal and illegal ways of deception. I was referring to the specific move in question. Obviously, it is impossible to fully explain which moves are illegal and why. It's a matter of applying the proper interpretations of each rule relating to a balk.

Tuck

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Pitcher is in his stretch. He picks up his non-pivot foot and has begun his habitual motion leaning back directly away from home plate - as described in 7-2-4d.

In the discussion so far, this commits the pitcher to a delivery to home. Have I misunderstood your comments?

My question is then what is the purpose of 7-2-4f?

Rule 7-2-4f: Failing to pich to the batter when the entire non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher's plate, except when feinting or throwing to second base in an attempt to put out a runner.

Hasn't the pitcher commited himself to throwing home long before his non-pivot foot crosses the back of the rubber? (Some pitchers never cross it during their regular delivery.)

I regularly see Right Handed pitchers lean away from home plate with non-pivot foot in the air and then their first forward motion (before their hands separate) is a twist, step and movement toward 1st, with a throw. Should this be called a balk?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I regularly see Right Handed pitchers lean away from home plate with non-pivot foot in the air and then their first forward motion (before their hands separate) is a twist, step and movement toward 1st, with a throw. Should this be called a balk?

Yes, this should be a balk. 7-2-4f (I assume that's correct - I didn't look it up), is an *additional* restriction on throwing to the base being faced -- first for LH pitchers and third for RH pitchers.