Perception or Reality

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Call the curve that hits the hollow of the knee and bounces in the dirt...

N/A to the OP, IMO. The strike zone is a different animal.

[jicecone]

I believe it was just a few weeks ago in MLB that a play was made at second and it looked like a routine touch of second, force out. Sorry don't remember game. When 2b came down he missed the bag by inches. The runner was called safe and I believe 2b was tossed. Replay showed the miss and announcers commented on the accuracy of the umpire.

What about the tag at home or missed tag, that ended an extra inning MLB game, also a few weeks ago. I believe there was a OP on that also. Expected call made. No

I have to agree with Rich, the day of the perceived, expected calls seem to have run there course. And yes, I made my share of them also.

It really does come down to , "sometimes you just have to umpire" and as BSump16 pointed out, in the scorebook it was registered as an out and the game went on.

Good discussion though.

[mbyron]

I think the issue comes down to whether the "get it right" philosophy has filtered down to whatever level one is working. Yes, on TV the umps have to get it right, because the "expected call" doesn't wash in super slo-mo. But my games aren't on TV.

I called a runner out when it appeared to all the world that he was safe. He was stealing 2B, and the throw was high. He did the old "switcheroo" thing with his hands, and the fielder fell for it: tried to tag the "bait" hand and missed. But he held the tag on the runner's shoulder, and when the runner removed his hand from the base a little, I called him out (tagged off the base after having stolen 2B). It happened so fast, it appeared as if I called him out on the steal, since I never made a safe call: I got a lot of "boos" for that one, because the call was late and "obviously wrong."

The coach, whom I've known for years, asked me after: "something weird must have happened there -- what was it?" When I told him, he just shook his head and walked back to chat with his runner. He's a good coach...

In my area, at the levels I work, I (and most umpires) try to "get it right." I like the direction that umpiring is going, and around here, on the bases, the right call IS the "expected call." But I also make the "expected call" on the curveball in the dirt. So I guess I'm not a purist either way.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

N/A to the OP, IMO. The strike zone is a different animal.

How exactly is it different? The strike zone is defined. If a ball passes through any part of it, by definition, it should be a strike. Yet, any competent umpire will gather other info before ruling. I see no difference.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

You can choose to believe whatever you think, however, in big boy ball, the "right" call is not necessarily the "correct" call. Perception is reality whether you like it or not. If everyone percieves you missed the call, then you missed the call period. You know it's true. Call the curve that hits the hollow of the knee and bounces in the dirt or call R1 safe at second when F6 catches the ball after the touch and see how long your services will be needed. Same is true when the fielder has ball in glove parked in front of the bag waiting on runner to arrive. If the runner slides directly into the base he is out no matter if the tag is applied or not. If you call the runner safe when the tag is missed by two inches, EVERYONE will know you missed it and you will lose all current and future credibility.

Sometimes you have to take off your training wheels, put on your big boy pants and become an actual umpire.

Maybe you should try big boy ball. The expected call is dead.

[dfwump]

Two philosophies, two schools of thought. I think we've beat it to death.

Regards to All,

Mike C

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by dfwump

Two philosophies, two schools of thought. I think we've beat it to death.

Regards to All,

Mike C

One thing that gets in the way, Mike is the personal labelling each school does of the other. School A claims that those from School B are corrupt, cheaters, and low level umpires.

School B claims that from School A are liars, hypocrites and low level umpires.

In reality I have seen umpires from both schools at the very top level of D-1 and professional ball and none of them were corrupt, cheaters, liars or hypocrites.

The primary difference, it would appear, is one of training and perhaps when the most recent training was experienced and who conducted it.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

You can choose to believe whatever you think, however, in big boy ball, the "right" call is not necessarily the "correct" call. Perception is reality whether you like it or not. If everyone percieves you missed the call, then you missed the call period. You know it's true. Call the curve that hits the hollow of the knee and bounces in the dirt or call R1 safe at second when F6 catches the ball after the touch and see how long your services will be needed. Same is true when the fielder has ball in glove parked in front of the bag waiting on runner to arrive. If the runner slides directly into the base he is out no matter if the tag is applied or not. If you call the runner safe when the tag is missed by two inches, EVERYONE will know you missed it and you will lose all current and future credibility.

Sometimes you have to take off your training wheels, put on your big boy pants and become an actual umpire.

Look at that last line again. It is far safer to make the expected call - one that you know is wrong but aren't man enough to make. If you can't handle a coach barking about your call, sell your gear. If his player can't execute the play properly and you need to enable him, you lost your credibility. I'm not worried about what Granny in the stands thinks about the missed tag and I learned long ago how to handle coaches who want to challenge a blown defensive play. "If everyone thinks you missed the call, you missed the call." Thanks for the laughs, that was really funny. Everyone...(roll eyes)

The expected call is all but dead in 'big boy ball' as you like to call it. The strike zone is the one exception that allows an umpire to ignore the low strike - it has been discussed ad nauseum. The other calls, neighborhood plays particularly, are routinely challenged by excellent umpires. It is refreshing to see the best professional and collegiate umpires not ignoring them any more. This past CWS had quite a few plays that were called as they are supposed to, not as fans think they should be. I would rather emulate those officials and my assignors are happy I do. Of course, you are free to seek approval rather than make the correct call during your games. I wish you luck.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think the issue comes down to whether the "get it right" philosophy has filtered down to whatever level one is working. Yes, on TV the umps have to get it right, because the "expected call" doesn't wash in super slo-mo. But my games aren't on TV.

I called a runner out when it appeared to all the world that he was safe. He was stealing 2B, and the throw was high. He did the old "switcheroo" thing with his hands, and the fielder fell for it: tried to tag the "bait" hand and missed. But he held the tag on the runner's shoulder, and when the runner removed his hand from the base a little, I called him out (tagged off the base after having stolen 2B). It happened so fast, it appeared as if I called him out on the steal, since I never made a safe call: I got a lot of "boos" for that one, because the call was late and "obviously wrong."

The coach, whom I've known for years, asked me after: "something weird must have happened there -- what was it?" When I told him, he just shook his head and walked back to chat with his runner. He's a good coach...

In my area, at the levels I work, I (and most umpires) try to "get it right." I like the direction that umpiring is going, and around here, on the bases, the right call IS the "expected call." But I also make the "expected call" on the curveball in the dirt. So I guess I'm not a purist either way.

Michael, I am going to borrow that phrase for my clinics: "around here, the right call IS the 'expected call'. Thanks, that was succinct and sound.

[REFANDUMP]

If you want to call that guy safe, go right ahead. I'll be the guy standing around home plate laughing my *** off while you're getting yours chewed.

I'll be the one calling him out so you can get the next hitter up to the plate.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

If you want to call that guy safe, go right ahead. I'll be the guy standing around home plate laughing my *** off while you're getting yours chewed.

I'll be the one calling him out so you can get the next hitter up to the plate.

You have partners working tee ball? Wow. Live the dream.

[dfwump]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

One thing that gets in the way, Mike is the personal labelling each school does of the other. School A claims that those from School B are corrupt, cheaters, and low level umpires.

School B claims that from School A are liars, hypocrites and low level umpires.

In reality I have seen umpires from both schools at the very top level of D-1 and professional ball and none of them were corrupt, cheaters, liars or hypocrites.

The primary difference, it would appear, is one of training and perhaps when the most recent training was experienced and who conducted it.

That was both thoughtful and well reasoned. I agree 100%

Mike C

[MikeStrybel]

Umpires at the top levels of collegiate and professional baseball are not making 'expected calls', except for the the aformentioned strike that bottoms out. QuickPitch ran a piece a few weeks ago about the ghost touch of second on a DP attempt. More calls of 'no bag' are being made and fielders have adjusted just fine.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The strike zone is the one exception that allows an umpire to ignore the low strike - it has been discussed ad nauseum.

I guess I missed that discussion. So why do we get to ignore not only the low strike, but the high strike as well? You seem to be a well versed umpire, so I anticipate your answer.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

So why do we get to ignore not only the low strike, but the high strike as well?

Because if I call those pitches strikes, the number of quality assignments I receive from my assignor will plummet.