illegal Sub

[Gre144]

High School Rules Please.

I.
Batting order is Jones, Smith, White. Smith is up to bat but illegal Substitute Lee Bats for him. The discovery is made while Lee is up to bat.

I believe that Lee would be ejected and the offensive team would be charged an out.

Question Part I.

1) Who would be charged the out, Lee or Smith?
2) Who would be up to bat after Lee is ejected, Smith or White?


II.

Batting order is Jones, Smith, White and Bush. Jones should be up to bat but illegal substitute Lee who normally bats for Smith (and thus is batting out of order in addition to being an illegal sub) hits a single. a) discovery is made before a pitch has been thrown to the next batter. b) discovery is made after a pitch is thrown to the next batter.

Question Part II

3)In situation "a" how many outs would you call, who would you credit the out to(assuming you only called one out) and who would be the next batter?

4) In situation "b" how many outs would you call, who would you credit the out to(assuming you only called one out) and who who would be the next batter?

[Edited by Gre144 on Feb 23rd, 2003 at 06:47 PM]

[jicecone]

NFHS 3.1.1 "The penalty for illegal substitution shall superseded the penalty for batting out of order"

Answers
1.1 Lee is charged the out and ejected.
1.2 Smith is up to bat. Otherwise you have also recognized the penalty for batting out of order, which has been superseded.

3. One out and Jones should be up to bat, but they did'nt get that right to begin with so who knows who is really standing there. Credit F2 with the out.

4. One out and credit the out to F3 .(I think). Once again Jones should be the next batter.

As you have probably already found out, this is not spelled out in the Rule or Case Book. (At least I did'nt find it and Im not staying up any later to look) But hey, Im willing to give it a shot

[Gre144]

In "3a" I would say Smith and in "4b" I would say White

[Bfair]

I think you are confused relative to the meaning of the out of the illegal sub superseding the penalty for BOO.

In your situation 1, the offense isn't "charged" an out.
The illegal sub (Lee) is declared out. That means his out is attributed to the position into which he illegally "subbed" (which is Smith's spot). This out supersedes BOO---which means you will not also declare Smith out for the BOO infraction. One out only is called for the infraction of illegal sub Lee entering the game. The next proper batter would be White---who follows the batter who should have batted (Smith). Smith is considered as having been removed from the game when Lee entered, and Smith may reenter the game if he still has his reentry privilege.

The declared out on Lee as an illegal sub must be attributed to a batting position and an at bat, and that position was the one originally occupied by Smith.

With that understanding, all your others questions should be answered.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Whowefoolin]

1. Depends. Is Lee a sub? Then this is just and unannounced substitue. If Lee is a started, he is not out. It was caught while he was up at bat you say. So the correct batter comes to the plate with the count that Lee had.

2. If a play occurs, then illegal batter is legalized and next batter is the batter listed after illegal batter, which is now legal.

[jicecone]

I understand Bfair. Lee's entrance into the game legalized him as a sub for Smith however, Lee was out and ejected for not being a legal substitute. Also, that position had an oppurtunity to at bat, therefore front and center, Mr.White.

I was wondering how the BO was handled.

The second part is confusing because the BO should be Jones, Smith, White and GW.

Therefore if Lee was discovered before or after the next pitch and as stated, Lee batted in the place of Jones, would'nt the BO position of Smith then be up? Lee can not be an illegal sub and be batting for Smith also! The fact that Lee normally did something has no bearing on what happened.

Sorry GRE144, I know this is your post but I would like to understand it also.

[Gre144]

"Therefore if Lee was discovered before or after the next pitch and as stated, Lee batted in the place of Jones, would'nt the BO position of Smith then be up? Lee can not be an illegal sub and be batting for Smith also! The fact that Lee normally did something has no bearing on what happened."

Response-

Lee is an illegal sub because he re-entered the game as a not starter. When he entered the game as a legal sub he entered for Smith. But now, having rentered the games as an illegal sub he additionally bats out of order in Jones Spot. Thus you have an illega sub who is BOO.

Greg

[Whowefoolin]

Good one GRE! You never said the specifics about the situation. Who knew he was re-entering, unless I missed that.

I thought he was a parent who jumped the fence and assumed the at-bat with only the name on a jersey as LEE. Actually, I read between the lines and saw that his name was indeed SMITH...

...Juniors long lost brother who, after years of searching, finally found SMITH. He was so overjoyed that he wanted to get up to bat for him and smack a walk-off homer.

And he did just that to win the game! However, the losing team protested saying he was illegal. When the committee convened, they found that SMITH's long lost brothers first name was LEE. So this legitimize everything by the book and everyone lived happily ever after.

You forgot to mention that too.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by jicecone
I understand Bfair. Lee's entrance into the game legalized him as a sub for Smith however, Lee was out and ejected for not being a legal substitute. Also, that position had an oppurtunity to at bat, therefore front and center, Mr.White.

I was wondering how the BO was handled.

The second part is confusing because the BO should be Jones, Smith, White and GW.

Therefore if Lee was discovered before or after the next pitch and as stated, Lee batted in the place of Jones, would'nt the BO position of Smith then be up? Lee can not be an illegal sub and be batting for Smith also! The fact that Lee normally did something has no bearing on what happened.

Sorry GRE144, I know this is your post but I would like to understand it also.

Typically illegally entry occurs when the substitution has not reported.
Still, for sake of argument, let's suppose Lee reported his illegal reentry but the nimrod umpire failed to pull his lineup card to verify and mark the change---thus failing to discover the illegal reentry at time of reporting.

Regardless of who Lee said he was subbing for, Lee is considered to have batted in the postion of and for the person who would have been the proper batter. Lee's out is, indeed, a declared out for that proper batting position. His out supersedes BOO. The next proper batter is due to bat from that point. Two outs are not declared for different reasons for the same batting spot. Only one out per batting slot occur in a game.
NOTE: BTW, I believe many years ago Fed did not word the rule accordgingly and their ruling, indeed, allowed for 2 outs to be declared to the same batting slot. They have now corrected that situation.

This is a good example, too, of why an umpire needs to verify reported changes as they occur. It's rather embarrassing when you could have avoided the situation with some preventative officiating but failed to do it because you didn't pull out your lineup.


Freix

[jicecone]

If this ever happens in one of my games, Im just gonna call time , go to the car, go on my laptop and get on the internet and look this post up.

"Lee is an illegal sub because he re-entered the game as a not starter. When he entered the game as a legal sub he entered for Smith. But now, having rentered the games as an illegal sub he additionally bats out of order in Jones Spot."

OH really!!!!Thankyou, Smith, please step up to the plate unless someone from your family is here to represent you.