Who's call?

[chris s]

This one happened to me in an elimination round of a PONY sectional.Very close game, 1-0 in the 3rd, both pitchers are getting ground balls and throwing strikes, I have the dish.
Weak grounder to F1, very fast runner booking it to first, soft toss by F1 to F3 results in F3 leaving bag and catching ball about 10 feet towards home, he is right on the line.
Br is a few steps from F3, he then veers well outside of the lane as F3 attempts a swipe tag and misses. Br then stumbles and misses first as f3 tosses to F4 at the back of the bag. Br then scrambles to bag and obtains posession before another tag. BU, after a loooong moment, then sells a safe.
Now defensive skipper comes out asking me if I had a better view. I ignore for about 2 seconds and then repeatedly tell him to ask the ump who made the call.
After skipper asked partner for help, BU comes to me and I relate that I have an out of baseline/attempted tag situation, "bang the runner ", I tell pard.
Pard changes call and there was no bitchin(surprise). Now between innings, offensive skipper comes to me and asked who's call is it. he did not have a beef, told me call was right, but he was curious as to the mechanics. If it was before the 45(40) foot line, I surely would have nailed it, but 10 feet from bag??
after game, BU told me he was freaking lost, total brain fart. He was screened by his not so good angle, that happens, but, I am at a bit of a loss. Should I have banged runner as soon as I saw the avoiding infraction??

[Carl Childress]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris s:
This one happened to me in an elimination round of a PONY sectional.Very close game, 1-0 in the 3rd, both pitchers are getting ground balls and throwing strikes, I have the dish.
Weak grounder to F1, very fast runner booking it to first, soft toss by F1 to F3 results in F3 leaving bag and catching ball about 10 feet towards home, he is right on the line.
Br is a few steps from F3, he then veers well outside of the lane as F3 attempts a swipe tag and misses. Br then stumbles and misses first as f3 tosses to F4 at the back of the bag. Br then scrambles to bag and obtains posession before another tag. BU, after a loooong moment, then sells a safe.
Now defensive skipper comes out asking me if I had a better view. I ignore for about 2 seconds and then repeatedly tell him to ask the ump who made the call.
After skipper asked partner for help, BU comes to me and I relate that I have an out of baseline/attempted tag situation, "bang the runner ", I tell pard.
Pard changes call and there was no bitchin(surprise). Now between innings, offensive skipper comes to me and asked who's call is it. he did not have a beef, told me call was right, but he was curious as to the mechanics. If it was before the 45(40) foot line, I surely would have nailed it, but 10 feet from bag??
after game, BU told me he was freaking lost, total brain fart. He was screened by his not so good angle, that happens, but, I am at a bit of a loss. Should I have banged runner as soon as I saw the avoiding infraction??

---

++++++++++
Chris:

That's an elementary call in standard mechanics. I'm surprise you didn't cover it with your partner(s) before the game.

The plate umpire has all tag plays before the batter-runner reaches the 45-foot line.

------------------
Papa C
Editor, eUmpire

[GarthB]

Chris:

What would you have done if he bunted the ball and was tagged by the catcher five feet up the line? You'd have called the out, right?

How about if the pitcher ran him down ten feet up the line? Your call again, right?

So where do we draw the line? At the 45 foot line if you have one, if you don't have one then take the call until you determine the runner is more than half way to first.

As Carl said, cover this in your pre-game.

[rex]

The man has spoken; it's covered in the pre-game.

I've always just said BU takes the CONE and PU takes the BOX.

If my partner freezes on that statement at pre-game. I will explain the Cone/Box/ Ball drifting to the lines etc. etc.

Quick question. If BU is not sure of a swipe tag on the way to first, should he go to PU with a no call? A, I got nothing? I've always wondered about the mechanics on that.

rex

[Carl Childress]

quote:

---

Originally posted by rex:
The man has spoken; it's covered in the pre-game.

I've always just said BU takes the CONE and PU takes the BOX.

If my partner freezes on that statement at pre-game. I will explain the Cone/Box/ Ball drifting to the lines etc. etc.

Quick question. If BU is not sure of a swipe tag on the way to first, should he go to PU with a no call? A, I got nothing? I've always wondered about the mechanics on that.

rex

---

++++++++
If B1 is the only runner, it's the same as a rundown. Since the B-R is past the 45-foot line (I'm old fashioned) and is running toward first, it's the field umpire's call. If he's blocked or unsure, the proper mechanics are really easly.

Point to the UIC and yell: "Did he get him?"

The UIC will say "Yes," in which case YOU signal out. The UIC will say "No," in which case YOU signal safe.

And--- If the UIC says "Beats the hell outta me," you will yell and signal "Safe" since you didn't see a tag.

So say da man! (grin)

------------------
Papa C
Editor, eUmpire

[Bob]

I kicked this play bad enuff to break an ankle, so I hope I get to see it again to redeem myself.

I would also add to go for help BEFORE you call ANYTHING. Don't say "He's out! Smitty, ya got a tag?"


Bob

[BJ Moose]

I am surprised that no one really answered the question. THE INFRACTION, of moving more that 3 feet out of "baseline" to avoid a tag happens 10 feet from bag.. so it is clearly in the BU area. PU moving to the 45 can clearly see that there is an infraction.. B-R is swerving.. say 5 feet to avoid tag. But BU angle does not allow him to judge this.. he had no tag and a SAFE.

Question was... Does anyone want PU to jump in and make this call immediately? "Runner is OUT for moving out of baseline to avoid a tag!" Perhaps we CAN allow this.. after all.. PU WOULD make an out call for a lane violation.. right?!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by chris s:
[B]
Weak grounder to F1, very fast runner booking it to first, soft toss by F1 to F3 results in F3 leaving bag and catching ball about 10 feet towards home, he is right on the line.
Br is a few steps from F3, he then veers well outside of the lane as F3 attempts a swipe tag and misses.

[chris s]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJ Moose:
I am surprised that no one really answered the question. THE INFRACTION, of moving more that 3 feet out of "baseline" to avoid a tag happens 10 feet from bag.. so it is clearly in the BU area. PU moving to the 45 can clearly see that there is an infraction.. B-R is swerving.. say 5 feet to avoid tag. But BU angle does not allow him to judge this.. he had no tag and a SAFE.

Question was... Does anyone want PU to jump in and make this call immediately? "Runner is OUT for moving out of baseline to avoid a tag!" Perhaps we CAN allow this.. after all.. PU WOULD make an out call for a lane violation.. right?!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moose is DA MAN!
Or antlered one, as Bob P. used to say. You have just restated what my question of my situation was, THE INFRACTION. As a BU, we are taught to help PU with the "time" call when the batter drills himself in the foot, correct? Then should it be allowed to call an obvious infraction, in this particular scenario(Br only).
When this play happened, I knew pard was screened off of the swipe tag, he never saw the attempted tag. F1 screwed up by soft-tossing ball to F3, which was way short and drew F3 10 feet inside, instant congestion for Bu that may have been in a little tight. I dunno, but maybe DA MAN(carl) will have an answer for the original question of ," as PU, can I bang a runner 10 feet from bag for a lane, and/or swipe tag avoidance violation?" ))

Weak grounder to F1, very fast runner booking it to first, soft toss by F1 to F3 results in F3 leaving bag and catching ball about 10 feet towards home, he is right on the line.
Br is a few steps from F3, he then veers well outside of the lane as F3 attempts a swipe tag and misses.

---

[This message has been edited by chris s (edited September 07, 2000).]

[Mark Land]

I think Carl and others did answer the question.

A swipe tag before the 45-foot line is the PU's call.

Guess who has the calls after that (including tags, lane violations, obstruction, et cetera). The answer is BU.

As Carl stated, with no one on base, PU should be moving down the line to help BU WHEN ASKED. These are BU's calls, he may ask PU if he needs the help.

If BU does not ask, PU should quietly turn around and go dust off the plate. It is wrong for PU to make the call (after the 45-foot mark until asked). To do otherwise will inevitably lead to the tow umps making opposite calls on the same play.


------------------
Take care,
Mark

[David B]

The same mechanics work great when in the infield also.

In FED playoff game this year I'm in B and ball grounded to F6. The throw pulls F3 off the bag and he swipe tags.

I'm straightlined, thought he tagged him but my instincts told me different. Without hesitation I pointed to PU and said "did he tag him". He replied "yes he did" and I gave the out signal and the inning was over.

I didn't think much about it, but an inning or so later on a pitching change the coach replied, "that's good umpiring. In our district an umpire would never ask for help on that call."

My reply was "coach, that's standard mechanics. Your guys need to come down here and we'll train them for you." He laughed.

But made me realize what is standard to most of us is unthought of by the masses. UGH.

Thanks
D. Blackwell

[This message has been edited by David B (edited September 08, 2000).]

[Bob]

OK, it's pretty much settled that the play 10 feet from first belongs to BU.

So now let's complicate it a bit. Say BU comes to PU and asks "Got a tag?"

You don't have a tag because BR ran way out of the baseline and avoided the tag.

What's your answer.

(BTW, I don't think this is like going to BU on a check swing. "Did he go?" "No, but it caught the corner!")

[David B]

Not complicated at all.

BU asks do you have a tag and I reply, "no I have an out, he avoided the tag."

Now I have seen guys say it's the BU call you must give him the call;however, in this play it's not a dead ball and there may be another play so the call needs to be quick and decisive.

Thanks
David

[rex]

That seems fair he (BU) asked for help and PU told him what he saw. BING-BANG-BOOM

Same as PU asking on a checked swing 3rd,(dropped [edit]).

Yes he did!!! No catch-No catch!!! Other wise it would be a no call without the appeal.

rex

[This message has been edited by rex (edited September 08, 2000).]