when is inside pick to 2nd a balk?

[Bfair]

I much agree, Dave............
The pitcher is allowed to turn in either direction when going to 2B, however, he is not allowed to hesitate at either corner base when making that move to 2B. I'd find it difficult to think that it would even be possible to hesitate at a corner base during a jump turn.

As for the knee buckling during the pickoff motion,
J/R best describes how it should be judged:

R1. After coming set, a right-handed pitcher's right knee quickly buckles before he throws to first: if the buckling is a separate, discontinuous motion before the motion to throw, there is a balk. However, if the buckling is merely part of a fluid and continuous motion to throw, there is no balk.

Let's face it, it's damn near impossible to throw effectively to any base if not allowed to flex your leg (which includes buckling of the knee).
Amazingly enough, the concept of continuity once again arises in determining a balk or not...........

And by the way........ Tim (Mr. IITBTSB) was pulling your leg, Dave.



Freix



[Edited by Bfair on Feb 18th, 2003 at 04:06 AM]

[gsf23]

Personally, as a coach (HS Varsity), I have always taught our pitchers to come set with a slightly bent back leg. Since starting that, we've only had two balks called on us in about 5 years.

[Tim C]

For YEARS I have been the person that states:

"It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base!"

Don't always take everything I say as serious.

[wpiced]

davekoch

Coach, I can't immagine why anyone would want to teach 11 year olds FED ball with its annual rule changes, errors, and general prostitution of real baseball, but the answers to your original post can be found in the OBR.

8.01(C) states: "At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion COMMITS him to the pitch, he may throw to any base...

When a pitcher commits himself to the plate, he can hardly position himself to throw to second. Therefore, as his free leg is dropping down, he has a choice of "committing" to the pitch or pivoting around to second. It is real easy to see a committed pitch aborted in favor of a pickoff movement. Let's allow the OBR to further explain.

8.05(a)"If there is a runner, or runners,it is a balk
when-" (case book comment) "If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter EXCEPT THROW TO SECOND BASE ON A PICK-OFf PLAY."

If you are teaching your 11 year old pitchers this move, you can imagine that they will either have to swing their free leg in a 180 degree movement to enable a step toward second base or while their foot is hanging over the back of the rubber, pivot and step directly to second base. The 180 degree pivot is not a commitment to the plate. That requires the free leg to glide out toward the plate.

Either way coach, if your pitcher has "committed" himself to the plate, he isn't going to be able to step to second.

One of the other posters said that you can't balk to second.
Except for the step toward, I think he might be right.

[Edited by wpiced on Mar 1st, 2003 at 05:52 PM]

[Tim C]

It IS impossible to balk to second base.

Can't be done.

The "Orignial"

Tee

[wpiced]

Well now, come on Tee. Can't you just immagine an 11 year old failing to step toward second base. I duno, do they even have THAT much coordination at 11?

[wpiced]

Tee,

What's even more important, I would like to see kids learn real baseball, perhaps with the exception of LL. That is a good instructional league to about age 10, but if LL tried to play Pony or other youth league that use OBR, well, there just isn't any contest.

[Tim C]

They don't "need" to step towards second base.

Not in the rules.

Tee

[jicecone]

"That is a good instructional league to about age 10, but if LL tried to play Pony or other youth league that use OBR, well, there just isn't any contest."

Heck I don't think were pushing these kids hard enough now days. I say LL until your 6 and the pony and HS until your 12. By then their ready for the big show. Just think of all the school taxes we could save by getting these kids out into the real world by the time they're 15. Im all for it. They gotta learn to go out in that real world sooner or later anyway.

[wpiced]

Tee,

I know you said in your ealier post not to take everything you say seriously. So I take your most recent post about not stepping to second base on a pickoff with a grain of salt. But, as a matter of fact, in my umpire's association, that comment might disbar you from an assignment all season.

Here's and idea! Check out OBR 8.01(c) and prepare a summary for our readers. It will be educational and informative.

[Tim C]

In all seriousness:

F1 can step towards F6 or F4 and throw.

He is not required to step towards second.

It is not like first or third base as he can throw to a fielder that is not near the base and not balk.

IIITBTSB

Now for your challenge:

According to JEA:

My summary:

Up to and including 1899 pitcher's could not feint to any base.

The rule change in 1900 allowed feints to all bases but first base (remember Home Plate is just that a plate and not a base under this rule).

The 1950 rule update then stated that a pitcher must step directly towards the base.

Now we move to 8.05 (c) and we learn that through "custom and usage" this "direct step" changes to "45* of a direct straight line to the base.

My summary of the rule continues:

Now that we all know that F1 does not have to throw the ball during any pickoff attempt at second base and we also know that many of the pickoff plays at second are "timing" plays between the pitcher and infielder we also know that a pickoff can be attempted to a fielder "not near the base" (not like a play at first base where F3 position CAN determine if the play is a balk or not) we see the the pitcher OFTEn will not be stepping anywhere near a "direct line" to the base.

Sorry Marty my review of this rule (and the authoritive sources listed) don't support your ruling.

You asked me to do the review and I did.

BTW, this same discussion has come up each of the last four years on one internet umpire webpage or another.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 10:35 PM]

[Bfair]

Marty, what you need to realize is that Tee takes personal pride in having the phrase "it is impossible to balk to second base" attributed to him. So much pride that he prefers to mislead newer umpires who don't fully understand HIS MEANING of that phrase.........so let me tell you Tee's meaning..........

While it is quite possible for a balk to be made when making a pickoff motion to 2B, Tee will always attribute that balk to some other reason or base. That is, if RHF1 was to throw to 2B without any step with his non-pivot foot, Tee would attribute it as a balk for starting a pitching motion and not throwing to home---yet it is a balk in his move to 2B. If the RHF1 was to step with his free foot moreso to 3B than to 2B and feint or deliver to 2B, Tee would attribute the balk to stepping to 3B (an unoccupied base)---yet the pitcher has balked in his motion to 2B.

Marty, Tee plays games on words to support his notoriety of his statement, and he does so at the expense of others less understanding of what he actually means. In doing so, he does a disservice to the game of baseball. While he expects others to respect his knowledge and experience, I disrespect his promotion of his little play on words that can lead others into believing they should never call a balk on a pitcher making a move to 2B.

It is quite possible for pitcher to balk while making a pickoff move to 2B.


Freix

[Tim C]

Here we go again.

IIITBTSB.

A pitcher DOES NOT necessarily need to gain direction when throwing to second:

An example:

Pull hitting RH hitter at the plate.

F6 is playing "in the hole" (strongly positioned towards third base).

R2 is taking a lead.

F1, with his foot in contact with the pitcher's plate, throws to F6 (located much more closely to third than second) where F6 runs R2 back to second.

F1 stepped no where close to a "direct line" or even a 45* angle to second and he DID NOT BALK.

My statement stands. While a pitcher can easily balk with a runner at second, he cannot balk TO second base.

Steve, take out a copy of a "to scale" field. Note that the pitcher's mound is located more closely to second base than home plate.

Go to your documents and you'll see that the famous 45* angle in taken from the pitcher's plate and ALL documentation relates to first and third base . . . now take that diagram and figure out "where exact" the 45* angle would fall if you were marking it too second base . . . interesting, no?

As an unauthortive opinion I contend that there is NO requirement to gain direction when throwing to second base from the pitcher's plate during a pick off attempt.

BTW, Steve I DID NOT coin the phrase "It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base" -- it was coined by the "true" authoritive opinion on rules that you dislike so much.

I just stole it!

And always remember, Carl Childress once called me, "The Most Dangerous Umpire on the Internet!"


As another umpire is known to say,

Just My Opinion,

(The Original) & Ever Slimming,

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 3rd, 2003 at 09:09 AM]

[BJ Moose]

Guys, I gotta say, considering the subject is ELEVEN year old pitchers... AKA little bitty kids with soprano voices... the verbage (balancing point??) of that post really frightens me.

I don't think there would be enought time in the DAY to teach 11 year olds how to throw the ball over the plate.

[wpiced]

Bfair,

Thank you for your post. Tee's craziness didn't deserve a reply. He reminded me of one of my law professors on a Monday morning after his usual Sunday night binge. When I asked him to explain the meaning of OBR 8.01(c), and he replied with his unresponsive post, I fully understood why his Profile Biography was an "X".

I would hope that this demeanor doesn't carry onto the diamond where people have to depend on his knowledge of the game -- and I am convinced that Tee knows the game.