when is inside pick to 2nd a balk?

[davekoch]

11 year-old pitchers under NFHS rules.

while practicing inside pick off moves to 2nd base at our last practice, a few coaches started to wonder about two aspects of when would would it be called a balk; one - where in the rules is the following declared a balk, and two - when would/should umpires call the following a balk: the latest point in the delivery from the set position that the pitcher can turn to second and make a pick without being called for a balk?

from the set position our pitchers do a good job of bringing their free leg straight up to a balance point and then letting it fall straight down before delivering to the plate. some coaches say to pick to second the latest the move can be made is at the balance point, while some said the latest was after the leg dropped back down from the balance point as long as he didn't move toward the plate, but dropped and moved to second.

i have the 2003 NFHS rules and can't find anything that specifically addresses this point and wanted to get some expert opinions.

thanks for any insight,
-dave, just a coach

[Bfair]

The pitching rules say nothing about a requirement to allow a pitcher to hang his free leg. The pitcher is free to step to a base from the rubber until such time as he commits to the plate with a motion naturally associated with his pitch. When he elects to make that step to a base, it must be "directly" to the base. That step needs to be within provided/accepted guidelines of no hesitation and gaining distance and direction. A step "directly" to 2B does not include any stoppage or hesitation of the nonpivot foot (or leg) in the air. The stoppage or hesitation of that leg is an action used in F1's motion to deliver the pitch. It is the normal starting point of his weight shift to the plate.

You don't want to hang or hesitate the leg if I'm your umpire.
As far as I'm concerned, hesitating the leg followed by the step to 2B is a discontinuous move that will be balked. IOW, pick up the free foot and pull it through, but don't hesitate it at the top and then step to 2B or I'm balking it. The hesitation is the indication of reversing the leg to the plate and his motion to pitch.

Unfortunately, too many officials lack personal confidence in their abilities to call a balk unless it's seen from Cleveland. That way they provide few surprises to the crowd. Still, they are the ones allowing the more refined but illegal pickoff moves to exist (like the one you are attempting to refine now). It's those moves that gain illegal advantages on the opponents; not the illegal moves seen from Cleveland. Even the runner has seen what those from Cleveland have seen and is able to safely return to the base. Why should I, the trained eye, lower my decisions to the level of the untrained eye merely to keep the untrained eye from having surprises? Did we all learn a little about the NFL's "tuck rule" when it happened and the correct decision was made?

When you are driving and you run through yellow at a signal light you should not be surprised if you get a ticket for running that light. You are pressing the limit. Some law enforcement officers will see the act differently---especially if they know you are a repeat offender attempting to gain an advantage.

When pitchers "press the limit" of the pitching rules (apparently as coached), then they should not be surprised when they are balked.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[davekoch]

bfair,

obviously my question(s) weren't clear enough. i don't agree with the "hesitation" move by hanging the free leg and that's not my concern. the concern is not in the speed, or lack thereof, just before moving to second, but when in the motion can the move to second last be made? is it at the balancing point (without hesitation ) or after the leg has fallen from the balancing point (without hesitation) and has reached the ground but hasn't moved toward home, just like our pitchers do in their natural motion when pitching to home?

another way to paint the picture would be SIMILAR to when the pitcher would make a move to second after he has come to the set position and his hands have come together, but he hasn't lifted his free leg at all and then makes the move from there to second. i'm sure most umpires have no problem with that, but now i'm talking at the other end of the free leg moving up to the balance point and then back down to the ground and before moving out toward home, could the move to 2nd be made then?

thanks,
-dave

[Rog]

http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/u/base...ers/rules8.htm

* (c) At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw. The pitcher shall step "ahead of the throw." A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

- - - So, that foot has to touch the ground prior to the throw: AND, in the direction of 2nd base for it to be legal.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by davekoch
bfair,

obviously my question(s) weren't clear enough. -dave

obviously my answer(s) weren't clear enough.

A pitcher pressing the limits of the rules should not be surprised if a balk is called.


Freix

[jicecone]

"You don't want to hang or hesitate the leg if I'm your umpire."

I dont think Bfair could have been any clearer and I agree with him 100%. And I dont live in Cleveland. The leg either comes down in the direction of a base or it does'nt, then the pitcher better be throwing to the plate if it does'nt.

The rules say nothing about a "hanging leg" however, any umpire that lets the pitcher get away with deceiving the runner by that move, should be exiled to Cleveland.

If your looking for the scienitific explanation try this , "the exact millisecond that a pitcher hangs his free limb for a time duration longer than normal or does not step in the direction of his throw or feint, is the millisecond at which we will be calling dead ball, Balk" NFHS.

Inside Pickoff? Are there outside pickoffs too?

[David B]

What in the world are we doing talking about a hanging leg with 11 year olds.

My sugguestion would be spend more time working on throwing strikes and hitting your spots.

As far as your questions, its really not that hard. The umpire is looking (or should be) at where his foot steps.

If he steps to second he may throw. If not, then he must pitch.

Everything else is just preliminary etc.,

Thanks
David

[davekoch]

in my first post i mentioned nothing about a hanging leg and that is not what i'm questioning, so please, no more responses about a hanging leg. i understood before and understand a lot more now that umpires don't like it...

in the most simple way i can think to put my concern: in the normal set position pitching motion the leg goes up and then the leg goes down, then out to home. my question is: when the leg goes up and then the leg goes down (with no hesitation in between) and then moves to second, is that legal?

thanks, if your reply is not about hanging legs,
-dave

[blarson]

If the leg comes down in the same manner as if the pitcher pitched, I have him committed to pitch. If he then changes that direction to step toward a base, You now have R3 to contend with. >

[jicecone]

"my question is: when the leg goes up and then the leg goes down (with no hesitation in between) and then moves to second, is that legal?"

This may be picky but if you remove the word "then " from your above question, it is legal. It either comes down in the direction of a base or the plate, or it does'nt. Any other way it is a balk.

[davekoch]

blarson and jicecone,

thanks, your answers are what i suspected and are the type of definitive information to take back to our team.

also, i would think the conventional jump pivot pick to second is considered an "outside" move since the proper way to execute it is to turn in the opposite direction of the inside move that has been described. i.e., for RHP, inside being clockwise and outside being counter-clockwise.

thanks again,
-dave

[BJ Moose]

11 year olds with PICK OFF MOVES? Ugh... stealing allowed at that level.. PASS.. Nothing like those 38-27 games to keep the interest of the officials...

[blarson]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
11 year olds with PICK OFF MOVES? Ugh... stealing allowed at that level.. PASS.. Nothing like those 38-27 games to keep the interest of the officials...

BJM,

Did CDP and they play stealing at the 10U level on 70ft diamond. I do agree with you for the most part, epecially for everyday (rec) level of play I agree, but at CDP, there were some pretty great games.

Bob

[Tim C]

"also, i would think the conventional jump pivot pick to second is considered an "outside" move since the proper way to execute it is to turn in the opposite direction"

IF you are saying a "jump turn" to second base (like a jump turn to first base)that move is impossible without balking.

Stand in your office and go through the move. In order to get turned completely and gain direction there "must" be a flex in the legs to perform the "jump". This is the start of the pitching motion and is a balk for failing to complete the pitch.

A jump turn cannot be done legally to second base. It is the law of gravity that is involved.

[davekoch]

Tim C,

your described motion is requried for the jump pivot to first or second for a RHP. are you saying when done to second it's a balk, but not when done to first?!?

we've been doing the jump pivot to second for a long time and never had it called a balk. what's even better is the pitcher doesn't have to throw to second like he does to first on the jump pivot.

hoping Tim C was just pulling my leg,
-dave