Is this pick-off legal?

[Larry1953]

Runner on second with no outs. Ambidextrous pitcher (pitching the entire game as a left-handed takes a set position. He breaks contact with the rubber with his left foot to step with that foot toward second. In nearly the same motion, but with the left foot off the rubber, he quickly transfers the ball to his right hand while dropping the glove and snaps off a throw to second that mans the stunned runner. Is such a pick-off attempt allowed?

[umpjong]

Yep, one he legally steps off (and it sounds like he did) he is an infielder.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Yep, one he legally steps off (and it sounds like he did) he is an infielder.

Thanks. I take it if the pitcher came to a set position and with the left foot still in contact with the rubber negotiated a similar throw with his right hand, it would be a balk?

[Tim C]

Yes, it would be balk for failing to complete the pitch to the plate.

As everyone else noted: when he steps off he becomes an infielder.

T

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Yes, it would be balk for failing to complete the pitch to the plate.

As everyone else noted: when he steps off he becomes an infielder.

T

I understand that a pitcher becomes an infielder when he steps off the rubber. But the MLB rules about the pitcher go to great lengths to handle the case of an ambidextrous pitcher. I could cite the exact language but it says something to the effect that the pitcher must indicate to the batter AND THE RUNNER which hand he is going to throw with and he does that by putting the glove on the hand he is not going to throw with. I could see that by that wording there would be room for an umpiring crew to rule a balk on the unusual pick-off move I described. If I were the opposing manager, I would certainly give that argument a try.

[Larry1953]

Rule 8.01 (comment) when the pitcher disengages the rubber he must drop his hands to his sides....

Rule 8.01(e) If a pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher's plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder.....

Rule 8.01(f) A pitcher must indicate visually to the umpire-in-chief, the batter AND ANY RUNNERS the hand with which he INTENDS to pitch which may be done by wearing his glove on the other hand while touching the pitcher's plate. The pitcher is not permitted to pitch with the other hand until the batter is retired etc, etc....

To which the pitcher could reply "I showed you I was going to PITCH with my left hand but when I am an infielder I like to THROW with my right hand.

Still, the rules specifically mentioned THE RUNNERS presumably so they would know which hand the pitcher might try to pick them off with.*

I think the rules need to be clarified to say once the pitcher steps off the rubber he may throw with either hand or, to the contrary, that the pitcher must throw with the "indicated hand" as long as he is standing on the mound.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Still, the rules specifically mentioned THE RUNNERS presumably so they would know which hand the pitcher might try to pick them off with.*

I think the rules need to be clarified to say once the pitcher steps off the rubber he may throw with either hand or, to the contrary, that the pitcher must throw with the "indicated hand" as long as he is standing on the mound.

So if he fields a batted ball on the mound he can only throw with the indicated hand?

If a runner sees a pitcher step off he's going back to the base. Which hand the throws with doesn't come into play.

You're trying to solve a non-existent problem.

[DBull]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're trying to solve a non-existent problem.

Yep

[Larry1953]

Sorry, didn't go through the minutiae of saying "whilst on the mound with ball on person in the process of commencing the act of pitching and not in the act of fielding a batted or thrown ball or stooping over to pick up an errant hot dog wrapper if such wrapper is being blown by a north-south wind..:-)

Seriously, guys, try the move in pantomime. You can get the throw off in about one-third of the time it takes for the usual contortions pick-off attempts at second take. I pulled that move while pitching batting practice with game simulation for my son's 14 year old Senior Little League team 15 years ago and the kid never knew what hit him. He got up yelling "that's a balk, Coach!!" so I gave him third. I asked a couple of amateur crews about it and they were divided and I have never really gotten an answer. But there are a handful of guys in high school through pro ball who are ambidextrous enough to pull it off and they ought to try it if it is legal. I just wouldn't do it with Bob Davidson anywhere around.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're trying to solve a non-existent problem.

Or, trying to give the illusion that one exists.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Rule 8.01 (comment) when the pitcher disengages the rubber he must drop his hands to his sides....

Rule 8.01(e) If a pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher's plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder.....

Rule 8.01(f) A pitcher must indicate visually to the umpire-in-chief, the batter AND ANY RUNNERS the hand with which he INTENDS to pitch which may be done by wearing his glove on the other hand while touching the pitcher's plate. The pitcher is not permitted to pitch with the other hand until the batter is retired etc, etc....

To which the pitcher could reply "I showed you I was going to PITCH with my left hand but when I am an infielder I like to THROW with my right hand.

Still, the rules specifically mentioned THE RUNNERS presumably so they would know which hand the pitcher might try to pick them off with.*

I think the rules need to be clarified to say once the pitcher steps off the rubber he may throw with either hand or, to the contrary, that the pitcher must throw with the "indicated hand" as long as he is standing on the mound.

Pitching rules exist for F1 when he is pitching not when he is throwing. Would you want the same set of throwing rules for your catcher? Who says that he can't dump the mitt, transfer the ball to his catching hand and throw to 1st?

It's obvious that you are a coach so let me put it this way. Deception is legal as long as F1 doesn't break the rules. When F1 legally steps off the rubber, he can do what ever any other fielder can do.

[Larry1953]

OK, can any fielder without the ball straddle his base? Of course he can. With a runner on base, can a pitcher straddle the rubber without the ball. Nope, the rulebook says that is a balk. But I thought you said when the pitcher is not in contact with the rubber, he can act like any other fielder? In this case he can't.

That brings me to a question about the hidden ball trick. The rules say a pitcher cannot straddle the rubber without the ball... Presumably this disallows undue deception while trying to pull off the HBT. What I am unclear on is whether the pitcher is allowed to go up on the circular lump of dirt called the mound without the ball in his possession when play is "relaxed" or is he just not allowed to stand on or straddle the rubber?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Pitching rules exist for F1 when he is pitching not when he is throwing. Would you want the same set of throwing rules for your catcher? Who says that he can't dump the mitt, transfer the ball to his catching hand and throw to 1st?

It's obvious that you are a coach so let me put it this way. Deception is legal as long as F1 doesn't break the rules. When F1 legally steps off the rubber, he can do what ever any other fielder can do.

Ozzy, you got me pegged :-). I hope my naïveté and ignorance don't prove too annoying to you guys. Believe me, I really appreciate the opportunity to access the expertise here. Everybody can ump from an armchair at home with ultra slo-mo replays. But it is a lot tougher than it looks with balls flying around at 100 mph and world class speedsters flying around the bases. And the amazing thing is that replays usually show that the umpires miss calls a lot less frequently than you get the wrong mail in your mailbox. I really do respect y'all's professionalism and dedication.

I am unfortunately no longer even a coach. The son I coached from a 6 year old T-Baller through a 15 year old Senior Little Leaguer went on to serve in Afghanistan as a First Lieutenant hunting down the bad guys. He brought his platoon all back home alive and well. Hopefully some of the things he learned on the ballfield like hustle and heads up play helped him to accomplish that. His knob year college roommate at the Citadel wasn't so lucky. With that you come to understand that there are worse things in life than a missed call.

Thanks again!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

That brings me to a question about the hidden ball trick. The rules say a pitcher cannot straddle the rubber without the ball... Presumably this disallows undue deception while trying to pull off the HBT. What I am unclear on is whether the pitcher is allowed to go up on the circular lump of dirt called the mound without the ball in his possession when play is "relaxed" or is he just not allowed to stand on or straddle the rubber?

Depends on which rules code you're using.

JJ

[Tim C]

God, I hate trolls.