Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.
 

Home plate appeal costs celebrating team a state title - Prep Rally - High SchoolBlog - Yahoo! Sports

Do you have what it takes to make the call?

I have been in this situation and had to hear from fellow officials about taknig the game away from the kids. I used to work with this official when I lived in CT and definitely know he was there because of his ability.

What say you?

If he missed home then he missed home and it doesn't matter who, what, where, when or how..... It's an out on appeal. It's not the Umps job to teach baserunning only to call what he/she has seen.

I was watching one of the CWS games and I think it was Thomas who was giving commentary and was shocked when I heard him say on a really close play at first (which the correct call was made, safe pulled foot, even in super slowmo) "It was really close and the tie goes to the runner." Thats the same kind of guy who says you took a game away from someone. Just my opinion.

And if you lie and say you didn't see it or that he touched, aren't you taking the game away for the other kids?

If the defense sees it and appeals, we should have the integrity to recognize good defense.

Rita

That's what makes a good umpire. Call the game like you see it. Luckily for the winning team their F2 was paying attention because most of the time players today don't even watch.

I listened to the video and the coach even said the umpire was a good umpire, so that goes a long way with coaches.

Thanks
David

I do not like the demonstration from the umpire about how he touched the plate. Just make the call. But of course if he did not step on the plate, he did not step on the plate. That will just make him a legend to make a tough call in a tough situation. Good for him.

Peace

I agree with this. I'm not letting the coach demonstrate and would likely eject a coach for the same kind of pointing to the ground, etc.

"He missed the plate. He stepped right over it." Good enough. I made a similar call about 8 years ago and I ended up having to eject the player and the manager soon thereafter. I'd make the call again in a heartbeat. How hard is it to touch the plate on a dead ball?

Standing where he shouldn't be at least 30 feet away from home plate. Should have been point of plate 15 feet back, maybe rotating 3B side to see him touch as the celebration comes out of the 1B dugout. Not where he was... awful umpiring bottom line. If he missed it, he missed it, but don't tell me he SAW him MISS from where he was. And even worse job dealing with the situation.

Listen, nobody's perfect and we all miss calls and mishandle situations. But I know this guy was not the most qualified to work this game, period. Its nothing against him as an umpire, and everything against the state board who let this crap go on over here on a year in, year out basis. It's an embarrassment to our profession.

Well....
I don't typically find this sort of thing interesting, because the story is usually an emotional appeal to "fariness" or some such.

But now having finally watched the video, I'm wondering-- does the mechanics and positioning of PU permit him to make an accurate determination whether the runner touched the plate? Would you use this positioning on an extra inning winning run?

I count 4 umpires, so he didn't have too may other responsibilities.


ETA: Sorry TussAgee, I'm a slow poster.

Where are all the 'expected call' guys now?

The same guys that proclaim they will never call a pitch a strike if the catcher drops it are nowhere to be found.

The same guys who say they will never call a curve ball that cuts the bottom of the zone but ends up in the dirt are silent.

The same guys who preach that they call the runner out if the ball beats him to the slide by three feet (without regard for an actual tag) are AWOL.

Hmmmmm.

The demonstration/explanation was not pretty, but we only see the exchange. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for appeasing coaches who usually would be borderline insane on a call like that, during a game as big as it was.

"Coach, I watched him the whole way in. I dusted the dish just before the at bat and I can clearly see his foot print past it."
"Where?"
"Right here, skipper."
"Oh, crap."

Tough call, good call. I would have like to see the BU rodeo clown the others away from the dish though.

Finally, standing 3B extended would not have allowed him to see the touch in that situation.

Who appealed the missed base? I see the catcher with his back to the plate as the runner crossed HP.

If I'm the plate guy and that's the winning run, with no play I'm standing as close to home plate as I can get, and I'm doing my darndest to keep the teammates away from the plate while I watch him either touch it or miss it. Clearly the biggest call of a game like that needs extra scrutiny.

JJ

The coach could've shouted out an appeal from the dugout.

My question isnt about the PU, but your "fellow officials" who disagreed with your sich.
Either they were your partners, or fans in the stands that game, or weren't even there. In any case, "taking the game away from the kids" is coachspeak, what official even says that?

The catcher can. All he needs is for someone to tell him to do it.

Is been five years since I worked in that area and with the official that worked that game. I have no idea what shananigans have taken place since but, I do know the official at the plate was more than quailified to be there.

"But I know this guy was not the most qualified to work this game, period." I have heard this a thousand times and it usually means, why didn't they choose me.

Not sure who you're referring to. Other than CC, I don't believe many of "those guys" post here. I've worked with some of "those guys", but most of them have been slowly phased out over the past few years.

Disagree - you take your normal position, you yell "get out of my way" and do your best to see the touch. I've never had a problem because when I bellow out "GET OUT OF MY WAY!" they scatter!
I'm such a prick!

Every touch of home deserves scrutiny. This one no more or less than others. And we all know that "as close to home plate as I can get" is FAR too close to really see a play. Go to your normal position and make sure you have an angle. There's a reason our mechanics tell us where to go on certain calls - it's because through trial and error over time we've learned where the best place to be is. Wouldn't you want to be in "the best place" in this particular case as well?

I'm standing in the runner's path just behind the plate, keeping the teammates away. It's going to be hard for him to miss it.

Well, don't assume I meant it that way because I didn't. Was actually speaking to the politics of the situation and why in CT our best officials are not put on the best high school games. I know of several officials in this state who are highly-qualified and capable umpires yet who are stuck with an average varsity schedule and an early conference/state appearance.

Then the "seasoned vets" who have been on boards for 30 years and appeased enough of the higher-ups get the big game, despite not knowing where to stand on touches of home plate and simulating out what he saw in his explanation in the dirt like he is in a Pee Wee huddle. That violates umpiring 101, plain and simple.

We as a state should be doing a better job of putting our best officials on our best games. Sadly, it doesn't happen.

I was working a high school game a number of years ago when we had a walk off home run. The dugout erupted on the swing and they charged out of it towards the plate. I was on the dish and as my 1B partner signalled the homerun, I put both hands forward and told the boys to stay off the dirt. Within seconds of opening my mouth, the HC of the defensive team was yelling at me for preventing an infraction and possible missed touch of home plate. I pretended not to hear him and after the kid touched, walked off with my crew. The HC and his assistant met us at the gate (the only way out was through the side closes to them) and continued to bait me. Only when I got to the car did one of my partners say something about it and he agreed with the HC. I commented that we have been asked to keep players away from the dish and he said that by doing so we are interjecting ourselves into the game. I disagreed but never forgot it. I still do it but much less than before and usually when I know I won't be able to see the touch.

There are still a few out there. It doesn't surprise me that they are hiding after this type of play. It was a tough call with an unexpected outcome. Some umpires believe that making the expected call is an honor. Yeah, it gets them ratings and assignments but they cheat the game by doing it. Expected calls are rarely fair and umpiring is supposed to be all about that endeavor.

Exactly, keep them away, then everyone can see the touch etc.,

Thanks
David

I've been gone from HS ball for a while. I didn't look very hard, but cannot find the rule that prohibits players from being around the plate during a dead ball. As stated above, I recall being told years ago to keep players off the dirt after a HR but cannot find a Fed rule. Can you please cite it?

2nd time you've called this a dead ball. This is a liner to left field. The ball is not dead.

Where did I state that the ball is a liner to left? I asked for a ruling on a HR.

This discussion is fluid. I see no reason to repeat the obvious, the OP has been dissected already. I sought information on a related ruling. Yes, twice, now!

As for the players, 3-3-1a can be invoked and the OHC knows all too well what it involves.

Yeah, you do have a red herring post (#21) over there. The confusion is that you quoted Dave, who quoted Rich - all of whom have been talking about the OP. My apologies for not noticing that your quoting of Dave meant that you were actually replying to yourself.

(PS - as a side note, you do this a lot. You end up in needless arguments with people because you were horribly unclear about who you were referring to or responding to. Not sure if you've noticed.)

No rule, as you know.

But, it is generally accepted good game management.

I concede that if you use the words "let him touch" (or similar), some rat* might interpret that as "helping the offense." So, say "let me see".

* -- I don't often use that term, but someone who uses this ploy on a walk-off is one, at least in this instance.

No. I quoted Dave because I asked a question of him. I posted a play I had been involved in that addresses a problem we can encounter by interjecting ourselves into a game.

I was not replying to myself. I seek a ruling for the play. I have found none that allow an umpire to prevent players from entering a field during a dead ball during HS level play.

Finally, if you watch the OP again, you will see players enter the field while the ball is alive. They are subject to warning and ejection. They can also be cited for interference.

Thanks Bob. Yes, I knew that there wasn't a rule about this in HS ball. My attempt to evolve the dialogue and banish a myth is for naught. In the OP, the PU had the best look at the runner from where he stood. He has to watch the touch at third, be in position for a possible rundown and fall back for a play at the dish. Third base extended wouldn't work for him too well. He may have been able to prevent the mob by being there, but anticipating that over watching his duties is not likely.

No, you're right, as usual. Your lack of clarity is completely my fault. Sorry bout that.

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

I blundered? In a thread about a liner to left where the apparent winning run scored, you post a semi-related but different situation that happened to you - and posit no question in that post. NO ONE replies to it.

You then quote one person, who was discussing the OP, and ask if there's really any rule about keeping players off the field during a dead ball. (The normal way of asking DAVE a question is PM'ing Dave. If you need everyone to see that you've asked Dave a question, simply put "Dave, " at the beginning of your question. Quoting him, in forum speak, means you are replying to him. He was not in any way referring to your irrelevant post from above.

Yet somehow <b>I</b> blundered by reminding you the ball in our scenario is live.

Incidentally - the answer to your question - whether there is a rule or not regarding keeping people off the field during a dead ball ... is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this situation, and most definitely not "a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it".

It's remarkable to me that you're unable to understand how threaded conversations work, and repeatedly end up in arguments with people that are completely caused by you're inability to keep things straight ... and somehow this is everyone else's fault.

This is 4 man. He should be point of plate period end of story. He is over there floating around in the middle of nowhere for no reason. If you honestly think he was in position, I'm speechless. You watch touches of 3rd and home from point of plate, you don't start snooping around 30 feet up the line. That is true in 2man, 3man, 4man, 6man, Little League, High School, NCAA, MLB.

Umpiring is not simply getting plays right. Its about being in the right spot to see those plays. Was it the right call? It may have been the greatest, ballsiest, correct call for all I know. But it was horrible umpiring. At our state's biggest classification final.

Dave and Rich were talking about keeping players away from the plate so everyone can see the touch or lack thereof. I related an experience that shows this to be divisive amongst umpires - don't prevent a player from breaking a rule. I asked Dave to cite the rule that allows umpires to keep players away so he can make that call. There is none, as Bob and I have stated twice now.

Finally, thanks for making my point - I asked a question of Dave and you jumped in, not with an answer but a blunder. I quoted him because I wanted him to respond. I never said that he was responding to me. Plenty of people quote others without having offered a prior statement here. Seriously, you messed up and cannot admit it. Threads evolve and questions are asked involving new scenarios all of the time in this forum. You failed to read what I wrote and now want to blame your lack of comprehension on me. Bob read it and responded appropriately. It must have been clear enough for him.

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

Sorry, but I read it the same way he did. They (including Dave) were all referring to the OP, and you referred to Dave's post by asking if there was a rule. It sure looked like you were looking for rules backing for his post ("keep them away") and calling it a dead ball.

Just $.02 from someone without a dog in this particular fight.

I'm telling the player to "let him touch" so I can see it. I'm not telling the runner to touch, after all.

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

There are numerous game management techniques that don't have specific rules to back them up. Keeping players away from the plate is one of them. You aren't helping or coaching the runner to make sure he touches the plate, you are simply making sure you can see if he does or not.

These were my exact thoughts while reading this thread. This is not a first for Mike Strybel.

Drift up for a look at third? Look for what? You can see the touch at third from where you're supposed to be at the point of the plate. The PU stays home with R2 in 3 or 4-man mechanics. On a base hit, step back to the point of the plate, observe the touch at third if it is yours, and then watch anyone touch home plate.

Drift? You shouldn't be "drifting" even in 2-man. Either you rotate and go to third for a play there or you don't.

I'm not arguing that he didn't get the call right. He very well may have. I just agree with others who said his mechanics/positioning and the way he handled the ensuing situation were not good. I would eject a coach for demonstrating at the plate like he did. The BUs should have ran the other participants off and let the PU talk to the HC. Tell him what happened and go from there.

Great post.

Go to the video linked in the first post in this thread. At 0:49 and for a few seconds after that, you can see all four at the same time. It's right as the PU finishes his demonstration.

I find a few of the responses pretty funny. Like our crews here in Illinois, the Connecticut crew that worked this game usually works the two man system during the regular season. Was the PU out of textbook position? Yes. Was he in position to see the call that he had to make? Yes. There is no perfect position for baseball umpiring. Also, tossing the head coach for being animated in that situation is asinine. The assistant coach gets less rope though and may have earned a trip home. As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

In response to a the query about getting the call right, if you don't know why I mentioned what get the call right means to MLB umpires, that's a shame. The very best umpires in the world know that umpiring is all about getting the call right, not about looking good doing it. They would rather institute instant replay in order to ensure this than pretend that their positioning is good enough.

Bob understood my post just fine. In response to Rich, I provided an anecdote about backing players off the plate. I know Rich to be a good umpire and was merely relating how our best intentions can injure the game. I asked Dave if he could cite a rule that allowed umpires to prevent players from taking the field during a dead ball. I know there is none. So does Bob.

RichMSN, I like the response...I still hold up a hand on big HRs and know better. I like to stand just in front of the plate, to watch the touch and then give the catcher the ball before I dust off the dish. Being there makes my every movement and advice visible.

DaveReed, I saw the fourth umpire. Thank you for pointing that out. I have searched for the box scores and see no umpires listed. The first base umpire was actually doing his job by rodeo clowning people away.

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

I'm sorry for doing what happens in almost every thread here. I added a dimension to the original play and it caused some confusion. It wasn't a big deal. I asked for clarification on something that was written. I could have written the typical, "Try again." or "Be gone fan boy." but I wanted to see if Dave or Rich would admit that no rule allows us to keep players off the field during a dead ball celebration. My attempt to remind the board that interjecting in that situation was more wrong than being out of proper position on the missed touch at home. Well, not really...he got the call right.

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Heh. Good catch!

Hmmm...where were the runners before the ball was hit? The PU doesn't rotate to third on a base hit in EVERY situation....if there was a runner on second he stays home...

JJ

Yes Rich that is possible but its hard to really tell where the runners were and outs, was runner going, etc. Winning run, I could see leaving the plate guy at home and just sliding or pushing on a clean double. I'm not going to kill the crew for that, but its certainly worth a discussion about end of game rotations / slides in both 3 and 4 man. Nice catch.

R1 only. It said so in the article and the timing of the video makes this pretty obvious.

There's no way I alter the rotations in this situation, either. It's just as likely there's a big call at third and I'd rather stay on the same page we were on the entire game.

(The only exception I could see is if it was a 3-2 count with 2 outs we might treat that runner if he was an R2 and slide. The timing just doesn't support that, though.)

As others have stated, this was not a dead ball situation. There is no rule that keeps players off the field, (in a dead ball situation), but if I am PU, I have lots of authority to make sure the plate area stays clean.

Also, at least in our state, we have mandated to watch the players around the plate because there have been so many instances where this has been interpreted as taunting. I know several times a season, I have to warn someone to cool it during their HR celebrations.

Thanks
David

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

Have you ever seen / heard of crews, perhaps some with some familiarity with each other, altering some rotations late in games and with winning runs involved?

Just curious,

Rotation is rotation. You're not going to change that simply because its the end of the game. There is no way communicate that with your fellow officials. But a very good point by Rich. I edited to add since i just saw your other post asking that question.
In all of our playoff games etc, we want the guys going out to cover the fly ball/ catch etc., on every possible situation.

But, I've never heard of changing anything simply because its the end of the game. If anything, I'm wanting F3 to make sure he goes out on a possible play etc.,


Thanks
David

It's a poor choice, IMO. Why keep the plate umpire at home? It's almost like saying that U1 isn't as capable of making a call at the plate when he's going to get to the point of the plate easily and make the call the exact same way the plate guy did.

I'm willing to bet that the reason that the PU was where he was is because he felt he had to get to third and then changed his mind. I mean, I don't see U2 sliding to third in the video.

I work a lot of 4-man games over the course of a season with some guys that I regularly work with -- I know we're not altering this rotation.

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

I'm confident in my difference in opinion.

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:

Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:

When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

Yes, Bob understood your post. . .AFTER you clarified it with a follow-up post. As for me, I took it exactly like some others did. Actually, with the way you quoted Dave and the context of his post, it came across to me as you challenging his statement (in his context, not yours). That warranted a reply exactly of the sort you got, but you just can't see it, and like a dog on a bone, you won't. It would have served you better to have simply clarified what you meant when others clearly misinterpreted you; instead, you go on and on and on about how right you were and are.

No, John, you are most certainly coaching them. It is no different than telling another player to not do something that would be an infraction. You are telling players to stay back - that is involving yourself in the game. While it may be to allow you a clear look at the plate, it is also crossing a line.

I know that many here subscribe to the theory of preventive umpring. Consider the typical, "Catcher, go tell your pitcher to stop or I'll balk him." You just prevented an infraction from occuring and it made your life easier. You also just gave one team an advantage. Call what you see, not what is convenient.

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I just read nine pages of discussion regarding a batter-runner interference call that would be largely ignored by most of the respondees. Hell, most had never even considered it to be interference. If you believe you cannot learn new things or improve then you will never work games on that stage. Those umpires made a tough call, just like the ones involved in this thread's play. They didn't take the easy way out. Call what you see and stop coaching.

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Happy Father's Day to those of you who have that title. Enjoy your day.

I guess that every basketball official that tells a thrower in a throw in what he can do he is doing the game a disservice. I guess it is wrong in that same sport to tell the players on a free throw to stay in their lane or stay to wait until a certain moment to enter the lane. Then I guess as a football official to ever tell a player they are marginal on an encroachment penalty or a holding penalty. Or I guess all the times I have defenders hit "receivers" while running routes in the secondary even when the action had not advantage I should also not say a word, because if that is not the case, then every single accomplished or veteran official/umpire that I have worked with does this for many things. I guess they are all totally wrong by doing such things, even though every camp I have attended or training there are tools like this discussed by everyone. Not every situation that we deal with as officials are in a book somewhere. I really hope that is your total justification for what we do in this case and others. I have never read a book how to deal with arguments, but somehow there are umpires that have techniques to deal with those situations.

Not sure what ratings have to do with this situation at all. I also have worked a lot of college over the years and I use similar tactics to prevent infractions of all kinds as an umpire at the high school level. The CWS is also not a good comparison for one the level of scrutiny is a lot different. If they make a call on a balk there is tape to back them up. A game in the middle of March they work probably is not even recorded other than by a parent and I doubt they are even taping from an angle that anyone would notice. Now since you brought it up one of the guys working the CWS is a Division 1 Basketball Supervisor of a Conference in the Midwest. I bet he did not get to that part by telling officials to not use preventative tactics from time to time and I doubt he got to that point as an umpire doing the same. And I know this because I know officials that work for him at his D1 league and other leagues and I have never heard them suggest to not do what is common in basketball to prevent problems. Maybe I am wrong, but I am going to take a wild guess that if I ever asked him about what you just said he might employ some of those things we are talking about here. Now, I am not saying to do this every single time, just suggesting that there are times and methods to employ such tactics and to tell a player when they might create an infraction of the rules. Because when make the call we are at a point of no return and now we have to call other minor infractions. I would rather talk a kid out of a minor infraction then call one and have to call one all day. And if that is your position, you must not also explain to a player or coach what they did on a balk, because that is also not in the book either. ;)

Peace

Hmm,
 

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

It's all part of the "a good umpire is one you don't notice" philosophy. It doesn't mean you don't make the tough calls, it means you deal with the little things before they turn into big things.

I've heard very similar words from Rich Fetchiet, Dave Yeast and Nick Zibelli and I teach the same.

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

Oh dear God I hope not.

LOTS of umpirs do that at all levels.

The CWS umpires are miked for the series. Anyone want to bet that they are coaching like top officials in the modern era? Talk with Jim Evans, Joe Brinkman, Tim Tschida or Gerry Davis about whether they offer 'helpful advice' in the guise of going unnoticed. I have.

For what it's worth, don't bring up other sports when discussing what is acceptable in baseball umpiring.

A quick review of this forum shows a tendency for dismissing opinions that cannot be corroborated by a manual of merit. Yet, when discussing the idea of helping a team/player gain an advantage through umpire interjection I find no such support. Hmmmm.

There is a school of thought that allows umpires to guide the game, making it easier to handle impending problems. I understand the need for that and have partaken. I work hard not to do it any more. This reminds me of the 'get the call right' mentality that so many fought a decade ago. They ridiculed conferences, changing plays and instant replay. The contention was that the game allows umpires to do certain things and sometimes they are wrong. That mentality has changed and the very best accept that they are there to make the tough calls and eat crow occassionally for the greater good of the game. Calls are scrutinized more, as is umpire behavior. I provided a very real situation where a coach called me on warning players from breaking the rules. I told it to support the idea that we should not coach, even if it makes us disappear out there. Yes, I believe a lot of it has to do with ratings and approval from the powers that be. It is far easier to tell a catcher that his pitcher is balking rather than simply call it and deal with upset players, coaches and fans. If that is how you teach or umpire, okay, good for you. I try not to do that. Sometimes I forget or get lazy, but by and large I try to just call what I see. If that means a coach will get upset, so be it. I would rather have a coach pissed because I balked his pitcher than to have him confront me because I just cut the other team an illegal break by coaching.

In basketball, reminding the players to get out of the lane. It's no in the manual, but I can guarantee in most areas if you start making this call (3 seconds) a lot (once a game), the instruction will be to use some preventative officiating.

I totally disagree about not bringing in other sports, because most top officials I know work other or have at one time. And this is not just a baseball only philosophy where preventive officiating or umpiring is used. And finally this complete comparison to pro umpires is totally different. We are not the pros. They have a lot of things they would never have to deal with and things they do we never have to deal with. I honestly in most cases do not care what pro guys do because if I handled myself they do at the college and HS level, I might not be working very long.


You keep talking about the Manual, but I have never read in any manual how to look in your uniform or to have it looked pressed and or what mask to use which we often talk about here. Also in Illinois we do not use any Manual (at least not from the NF) so I have no idea what that says or care what it says.

Wrong on the part in bold. You said you do not work HS anymore. I still do a great deal of HS (cut back on all of it but it fills a good part of my schedule overall) and I work a lot of college too. College coaches have a lot of say in who works their games than most HS coaches and if you tick off a college coach they tend to hold more of a grudge. Again, most of those umpires I know treat this area almost the same. So that is why I do not understand your point about ratings when ratings do not determine who works in the playoffs (at least in our state as people might think they do) and this has nothing to do with not making a tough call. It has to do with trying to prevent a very borderline infraction like a balk so that every similar action will not have to be called based on a very minor or debatable infraction. But if the infraction is obvious, of course no matter what you have said that needs to be called. And I can tell you I have made a lot of tough calls at all levels only and my ratings are still very high.

I have no problem with you taking a different philosophy, but just understand it appears that many do not seem to agree or do what I suggested in this very specific case. I have never really heard anyone complain big time this from the coaching perspective and certainly do not do it for ratings. I call many balks a year and most of those calls go unchallenged in my experience. And if you think that is to appease some fans or a coach that was probably the funniest thing you said. Coaches and fans come and go; the top officials stay mostly the same. ;)

Peace

Well, I certainly talk to players to prevent infractions. So sue me. Had a Babe Ruth game Saturday where the visiting catcher, obviously not very experienced, set up way forward in the box. I said, "you sure you want to be that close?" The lead-off batter, who happened to be the home team's catcher, almost hit him with a warm-up swing, and stepped back looking quizzically at him. When F2 didn't move, the batter shrugged and I put the ball in play. The batter whacked the hell out of his glove on the first pitch. "I tried to warn you," I said, as he shook his bruised hand. He learned the lesson quickly!

Pitchers in danger of balking will get a soft caution from me, too.

BTW, you should listen to the highest level international rugby referees (they are miked, too) - their games are a constant running dialogue of warnings, instructions, "coaching," if you will. "Stay onside!" "Keep back!" "Make it [the ball] available!" "Play it!" "Release him [to a tackler holding a ball carrier]" and so forth. It's all intended to keep play moving and prevent action-halting infractions.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot I'm not to mention other sports! ;)

At the risk of seeing another ramble and going against multiple PMs asking me not to engage you in logical debate, here goes nothing.

You consistently bring up other sports that are not relevant to baseball umpiring. What may be acceptable in another sport has nothing to do with baseball officiating. Nothing.


I mentioned having a manual to corroborate opinion because that is exactly what others here do. They demand that an umpire show support for a contention.

Anyone who has attended pro school knows that we receive direction on how to dress. Many of us were also told what equipment to use. Still, your comment is ludicrous on face and depserate at best. We are talking about mechanics and those are readily available in a number of media formats.

In Illinois, we use the NFHS rule book, supplemented by the IHSA codes and by-laws. Our clinics cover mechanics and standards. In none of our baseball literature will you find mention of helping a team subvert the rules.

I have never stated that. Please do not misrepresent what I say here.

For those not familiar with Illinois ratings protocol, I offer this: umpires are rated by coaches for every contest they work and by the top level of umpire partners (Certified) as well. Those numbers are compiled and officials are issued a power rating. It is used to rank you and assign playoffs. While not perfect, it is still a decent way to establish umpire ability. It is a work in progress and our leadership sees room for improvement. I anticpate changes that will allow for personal evaluation and less merit given to coach assessment and Top 15 list involvement. These last two are suspect at the moment.

Collegiate umpires also recieve ratings. I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

I have spoken with numerous officials, both partners and at the clinics I teach, regarding ratings responsibility. Some guys refuse to check equipment, enforce jewelry rules, batter's box infractions or call balks simply because they want to earn top ratings from coaches. They openly admit that they are compelled to give players and teams breaks because they want to advance and are stuck behind higher rated umpires. This is not a difference in philosophy - the original play held a PU and his crew accountable for making a tough and unexpected call. We can debate ad nauseum whether they should have made that call or not, how they demonstrated it, who should have done what, how much tolerance was acceptable to upset coaches, etc. In the end, you umpire to your convictions. I related the story of a partner who tried 'preventive umpiring' (he told the shortstop to tell the pitcher to pause) only to have it blow up in his face. I showed how a coach jumped on me for keeping players from interfering with a play. Some of you find it acceptable to warn pitchers for balking (the rules don't support this) or other "minor" team/player infractions. Good for you. I encourage you to watch the CWS this week. Go to an MiLB park near you or watch the MLB crews at work. They have adopted new personalities out there. They don't ignore, coddle and help others cheat. I choose to emulate them. In the end, your integrity is all you have. I'll take a lower rating in order to sleep better at night. I see no reason to try to convince you to not cheat. If you are inclined to make it easier for yourself to officiate by preventing a player/team from breaking a rule, go ahead. I will not attempt to change that mindest any further. It is not arrogance, rather frustration that drives this now. I have never said I was better than anyone else here nor do I think others are less talented. Umpire to what is expected of you or allows you to be noticed by the powers that be. I'll continue to try to call what I see.

Have to jump in here also. Besides baseball I officiated Ice hockey over 20 years and can point in the manuals were talking to the players is highly encouraged, AT ALL LEVELS. I personally know that it takes place at the PRO level too.

Of course, at the Pro levels of ANY sport there is going to be a lot less communication because your suppposed to be dealing with professionals. Hello!

For the most part here though, I would bet that at least 95-98% of the officials don't work those ranks, and I am not just talking about baseball.

Your welcome to work as you see fit though.

Well then why does everyone from the IHSA, Referee Magazine or even other publications discuss general officiating practices. Just the how the IHSA runs their camps it is clear that what is used in one sport works or is used in another. And if it was not relevant, then people would not have given examples of other sports.

Point taken and you are right. But the manuals from the NF are very limited and often do not discuss many advanced officiating techniques and why people attend camps instead of relying on the manual alone.

OK, but that is pro school. If I go to a NBA camp those practices do not always translate to lower levels either. Of course there are some best practices that can apply to all levels when the pros teach it, but there are a lot of things that do not translate. For one those players are making money and that is their job. We are dealing with kids that might play baseball to pass the time for their other sports or they will never play after their HS career is over.

I also am directly involved in all my sports with training and every one of those that is run with the IHSA's approval we teach things that are not stated in all literature. Not only is that expected in every case, it is used across the board. I even run a clinic with a football crew member for the IHSA in Peoria and we talk about things that apply across multiple sports. We have to as that is the design of the camp. I cannot just talk about baseball only stuff when I have track, football and volleyball officials in the room.

I did quote you now. ;)

But that is involved in a larger Power Point system. Coaches and Officials ratings are only worth 5 points and Top 15 is only worth 5 points, so multiple people have a say in your ratings in these two areas. That means you have 30 other points (40 Total Power Points) that factor in your rating system. So to say that ratings drives a philosophy not to piss off coaches and fans that is kind of a misrepresentation in my opinion. For one fans have no say in any ratings system around here, so why would those care about what fans think really? And only varsity games can be used by coaches to rate you (they have to fill out an extensive from to give a single rating). And I can tell you that I did not have the highest ratings and worked a state final in two different sports. Actually my baseball ratings dropped the year I worked a state final and I was not at the total possible points when I worked the same level in football. And my ratings in baseball have been pretty much the same and I have advanced in basketball. Yes ratings matter, but in our Official's Handbook it is clear the sports administrator can make some decisions independent of the ratings and I know they do from things they have stated.

Well there are many people that do not know about what college umpires have to go through and not every state has a ratings system by the coaches. So you might want to make that clearer as many people might be unaware that our system is not the same as their system.

This is my problem mostly with this disagreement we are having. I never suggest that someone is cheating or helping the other team. I simply said that it is common practice to use some form of preventative officiating in baseball as others do in other sports. And yes that is relevant if you work other sports because it is common to teach or reference other sports as to what applies. I just was at a basketball camp where I was a clinician. We used a baseball example to make a point about how to make a basketball call. The example made sense to many as they were umpires currently or at some point in their officiating career. Do not take this so over the top that someone is telling you what to do. If you do not want to tell a pitcher that is close to a balk to be aware of it, then so be it. I would work with you and get along. But I would hope that when you do make that call you are not doing it on a borderline play that is so marginal that now every similar action must require a call from me as your partner or I have to hear why we are not consistent based on something we called previously. Again, I can sleep well at night with what I do as well. But do not act like there are those that do not teach this or expect this at all kinds of levels. I cannot speak again for what goes on at pro school; I can just speak for what I have seen D1 umpires to State Final umpires do. And there are so many camps and umpires I have heard talk about these things at all kinds of IHSA camps as well as those run by the NCAA. Again, not trying to convince you to change, just stating that this is widespread. No reason to get all hot and bothered about this, we are having a discussion about what is best to do. We are all not going to agree on every issue.


Peace

I'm still trying to figure out why the headline doesn't say, "Missed base costs team championship"

Very simple. It is easier to make the umpire the bad guy and not the action by the kid. The media loves this kind of story.

Peace

Or "Observant Team Gets Second Chance to Win Championship"

Or...Umpire Does His Job, Lets Players Decide Game

or...Jealous Umpires Will Have Field Day Over His Tough Call

Jeff, this is my last post to you regarding thsi topic. You will undoubtedly take the last word.

Please stop. Communicating to coaches and athletes is one thing. Giving one an advantage rather than officiating is another. Go ahead, call down state and tell them how you believe it is appropriate to issue warnings that are not legal. Tell them how you believe it is acceptable to coach rather than officiate in certain circumstances. Follow the rule book, Jeff.

Again, stop. You cannot support your opinion with anything in writing.

You cannot help yourself. Do not bring up other sports. I don't care what other sports allow. Your generalization of baseball players is truly inappropriate.

Again with comments about irrelevant sports. Ugggghhh.

That must be your way of apologizing for misquoting me.

I felt no need to explain the entire power system. You can get 5 points simply by waiting until your friend or association furnishes you with the test answers. You can another 5 points simply by attending a clinic each year. Points are important. The difference between a playoff assignment can be a single point. That is why so many do whatever it takes to get high ratings from coaches. I have had coaches tell me that umpires call them to remind their staff to rate them highly and include them on their annual Top 15 list. That is shameful politicking.

Logic evades you then.

Again, I never said that fans rate us. Please stop mistaking what I said. That is as nice as I can write that.

We have a new Executive Director. He strictly adhered to the Power Ratings this year for playoff assignments.

There is no need to tell NCAA officials about our ratings system. It is well documented. Illinois colleges adhere to the national policy. Some JUCOs here haveeven adopted the rating system for their NCAA brethren.

Common practice among officials who want to make their job easier. Call what you see or at least try to.

Sigh. Roll eyes.

I once attended a prestigious umpire camp which featured an umpire who told us how he was sick of getting hit by pitches and foul balls, so he pushed the catcher forward while the pitch was being delivered. The attendees laughed. I didn't adopt that philosophy. Some things that are taught at camps are simply not worth emulating.

There is no such thing as a borderline balk. It either is or isn't.

Jeff, I will let you have the last word. As I have stated numerous times, umpire to what your area expects. If they tolerate umpires who prevent players from breaking the rules, in violation of the umpire accepted official codes of ethics, great. I am hardly 'hot and bothered' by your posts. I find them amusing and a bit challenging to dissect, but hardly confrontational. You can call them as you see necessary. I will too. I will also continue to encourage my fellow umpires to do better than what is expected or talked about secretly between ourselves.

Enjoy your summer. I will do my best to do the same.

Communicating with contestants is far different than giving one an advantage over another. I would rather emulate the best than accept the actions of those who violate ethics and rules. I have been fortunate to work with some excellent officials over the years and we have evolved as a group. The current crop would have umpired rings around me when I was their age. They are commited to professionalism that is beyond admirable. I have to work much harder when partnered with them and am glad to do it. Their no nonsense approach is refreshing and a reflection of solid training.

It is not about having the last word; I just disagree with your point of view. And we do have a new administrator in baseball (he also does football) and he did not give people playoff games just on power ratings. I can tell you that because there are other factors like availability, area and what they did before.

At the end of the day it does not matter. I will work what has worked for the past 15 years of doing baseball and will continue to do so. I said preventative officiating and you have turned this into allowing a player to violate a rule. OK, I guess. Not what anyone has said (and I am not alone in this discussion).

And let me address this as I think it matters. If you are not hot and bothered then why all the extra comments? I know you will not answer but it seems to me if you disagree then disagree. But for some reason this is personal for you like it was the other conversation and you were also proven to not be totally right there either and I was not the person to show you evidence to show you were incorrect. Again this is a forum to discuss things. Many people take these types of discussions to explain why they do things. We can honestly disagree, and if you do what works for you why would anyone really care? I know that these things I do are hardly noticed by even coaches and they have no idea unless I tell them what I said. Usually they say "Thank you" and we move on. To me this discussion is about as important as discussing if pitching overhand vs. sidearm. It is really about style and what works for you. It is really not that big of a deal.

Peace

I hope you realize how strong of a statement that actually is.

Wow, that all sounds familiar. Replace CT with CA and it's exactly the same.

If a batter takes a position outside the batter's box as his preliminary starting point, pro school teaches the umpire to instruct him to get into the box.

I see that as a form of preventative officiating at the highest level.

As somebody mentioned, the reason you don't see much of it in MLB is because they are pros to begin with. They don't need reminding. But they do appreciate it when something comes up. I'll give you a classic example from the highest level of baseball I ever worked.

Double play ball, out at 2nd. Ball gets thrown into the dugout. Batter runner is lying on ground with a torn ACL at the 45 foot line. I call time and award 2nd.

As the manager, trainer, and first base coach hover over him, I casually walk over and very quietly say to the manager, "Joe, we're fine if you want to use a substitute here, but make sure he touches first before he goes to 2nd".

Sure enough, runner comes running out right to 2nd base. Manager starts screaming, whoa whoa whoa! Go touch first!

Next night, other manager comes out to coach 3rd, and he asks me about it and is trying to fish for just what I told the other manager. I told him right there "Chris, what I told him, I'd tell you in the same exact situation." And he was just fine with that. Surprising, cause he was a bit of a hot head.

I do. This was a HS game. Read the NFHS Code of Ethics in the current rule book - umpires who give one team an advantage over another have violated that covenant and displayed poor integrity and ethics. Again, I offer the play involving an umpire telling a defensive player to warn the pitcher that he will be called for a balk unless he changes his delivery. That play has been mentioned numerous times as acceptable.

Two thoughts: 1) Asking a player to assume his position so a pitch can occur is not preventive officiating. 2) I have yet to see a pro player set up completely outside the box. When a player contacts the ball outside the box, I have seen that play called several times in the pros and even more in amateur ball. That is umpiring.

You did nothing noble nor unethical. In fact, you simply followed the rules, it seems, unknowingly. Rule 5.10 (c) (1) reads, "If an accident to a runner is such as to prevent him from proceeding to a base to which he is entitled, as on a home run hit out of the playing field, or an award of one or more bases, a substitute runner shall be permitted to complete the play."

If you're saying the pitcher balked and was told "If you do it again, I'll call it", I agree. Just call it the first time.

I'm not sure that's what everyone else is saying.

Bob, another member wrote that he has no problem telling the catcher to go talk to the pitcher about stopping. I believe the phrase used was 'quietly tell him to pause better" or something similar. Several members agreed. I related the story of someone we both have worked with who was caught telling the shortstop the same thing. (The SS stayed in his position and said something like, "Hey, he said he's going to balk you if you don't stop better than that.") the only thing it prevented was laughter from the offensive coach. He should have just caused the balk. If you see a poor stop, call it, don't coach. End of story.

Getting back to the original play, years ago we were told to make sure players didn't step into the dirt area around home plate in celebration - live or dead didn't matter. I offered a play where I prevented them from doing so and the HC chewed me out for preventing interference or at the very least, a possible ejection for leaving the dugout. While I understand and you know you are aware of how I umpire, I agree with the coach and current thinking of the better umpires in the game. Just call what you see and work hard to make certain it is correct. Interaction between players is limited to pleasantries and essential communication. Now, I readily admit that I have broken the rule and done things that I now find to be more trouble than helpful. I still make mistakes but work much harder to make certain they are only noticeable to my peers, not the players. Yes, I still say things on the field I shouldn't and often regret doing so. In the end, it is far better to disappear out there. You don't do that by helping a team cheat and that is what coaching while officiating is.

while all of us will draw the line at a different point, there is a difference between coaching and preventive officiating.

Reading is fundamental. Go back and re-read what that member wrote. He wasn't talking about not calling balks; he was talking about warning the pitcher when he's getting close but not quite violating the rules.

Your need to insult is sad. I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other. I read the posts just fine.

Tim and RichMSN both spoke about warning a pitcher after seeing him do something that you know isn't right. (Otherwise, you are simply an OOO.) As I and many others here have stated before, it ether is a balk or it isn't. If it isn't and you feel the need to tell a player to do something to avoid balking then you are coaching. If you don't have the fortitude to call the balk then hang up the gear. Yes, we all miss balks and then stew over the reality of it. Warning a guy after that is just as awful. Call what you see. Let the coaches do their job.

I find it particularly funny that a number of threads involve members who insist that they aren't paid to coach and bemoan leagues that require explanations for balks, INT, OBS, etc. Now, they are silent. Hmmmm.

Yes Bob, we all have tolerances for what is ethical and not. As with many things in umpiring, acceptable behavior is evolving. At one time, you could argue just as vehemently as the antagonist. At one time, you could simply make your call and ignore the call for getting assistance. Old school, unwritten rules are slowly falling away from upper level baseball. You won't see a CWS umpire pick and choose which rules are worthy of enforcement. Those are the guys I emulate.

No, I told them how to follow the rules by telling them to how the substitute runner needs to touch the bases legally.

In other words, preventative officiating.

And it was accepted at a level with ex-MLB guys on the field.

If it has its place there, even in limited circumstance, then it must have its place at the high school or college level as well.

Not a need so much as a desire. I normally censor myself, but didn't bother this time.

+1

This is no different than a coach coming to you to report a change. Said change includes re-inserting a prior substitute (already in and out) back into the lineup.

As the UIC, you know the player is ineligible and should inform the coach as much..........

Preventative Officiating

That's too bad. Had you simply known the correct rule, you woudln't have had to bother trying to impress or feel good after. If you had an ex-MLB partner who didn't apply that rule then we know why he is an ex.

The ball is dead when it went out of play. He is awarded two bases and most umpires know you have to touch the bases in the correct order, yes, even on awards.

Preventive (spelled correctly) officiating is an oxymoron.

I will relate another issue that arose during Illinois playoffs this year. Another thread told of the matter but details were not present. My partner ejected a player for wearing what the IHSA considers to be jewelry. He claims he issued a warning and then the player stepped into the box with the bracelet on. Fair enough, it was his call and handled by the powers that be. In order to avoid similar problems in the next game, while checking bats and hats I asked the coach to make sure no one was wearing jewelry. It was innocent enough and what many of you consider preventive umpiring. After the game, a number of fellow umpires asked about what had transpired during the series. I relayed the details and had an umpire I truly respect tell me that I crossed the line. He said that it isn't my job to be the jewelry police and by warning them prior to the game I had prevented them from breaking a rule later. He told me to call what I see and not attempt to do what the coach is supposed to do, namely ensure that all players are properly equipped and within the rules of our administration. He was right. I'm simply doing what he did for me - help others understand that old school and innocent communication can be perceived as a violation of our code of responsibility.

I understand. That is why I posted exactly what Tim and RichMSN wrote regarding non-balk coaching. Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.