Originally Posted by asdf (Post 767443)

+1

This is no different than a coach coming to you to report a change. Said change includes re-inserting a prior substitute (already in and out) back into the lineup.

As the UIC, you know the player is ineligible and should inform the coach as much..........

Preventative Officiating

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767434)

I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767452)

I understand. That is why I posted exactly what Tim and RichMSN wrote regarding non-balk coaching. Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767420)

He should have just caused the balk. If you see a poor stop, call it, don't coach. End of story.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767441)

Not a need so much as a desire. I normally censor myself, but didn't bother this time.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767434)

Your need to insult is sad.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767450)

He said that it isn't my job to be the jewelry police and by warning them prior to the game I had prevented them from breaking a rule later. He told me to call what I see and not attempt to do what the coach is supposed to do, namely ensure that all players are properly equipped and within the rules of our administration. He was right. I'm simply doing what he did for me - help others understand that old school and innocent communication can be perceived as a violation of our code of responsibility.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767450)

It was innocent enough and what many of you consider preventive umpiring. After the game, a number of fellow umpires asked about what had transpired during the series. I relayed the details and had an umpire I truly respect tell me that I crossed the line. He said that it isn't my job to be the jewelry police and by warning them prior to the game I had prevented them from breaking a rule later. He told me to call what I see and not attempt to do what the coach is supposed to do, namely ensure that all players are properly equipped and within the rules of our administration. He was right.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 767482)

Well good for you and him. I am telling kids in all my sports to remove jewelry when I see it. I guess that makes me a bad umpire or doing things outside of my job. :rolleyes:

Peace

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 767477)

I see you brought your "when in Rome" philosophy to the baseball forum. ;)

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767487)

It makes you an ethically challenged cheater

or sumpm

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 767494)

I guess I am just going to have to stay that way. :)

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 767494)

I guess I am just going to have to stay that way. :)

Peace

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767458)

I thought you were able to disagree without demeaning others?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 767486)

No. He wasn't. Therein lies the crux of your problem. This ONE guy, who you happen to respect, gave you bad advice. 20 people here are giving you good advice (the opposite of your bad advice). You're sticking to the bad advice. Perhaps you need a 3rd opinion... but the exact scenario you describe above is EXACTLY what you're supposed to do.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767541)

I happily admit that I am still learning and make mistakes, some crucial, while officiating.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 767482)

Well good for you and him. I am telling kids in all my sports to remove jewelry when I see it. I guess that makes me a bad umpire or doing things outside of my job. :rolleyes:

Peace

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 767544)

Good, then you'll learn from this mistake. ;)

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767545)

You are within your rights as an umpire to ask athletes participating in the game to do it. Be careful telling (your word, I 'ask') others to do it. You would be wrong. The rules allow those on the bench to wear jewelry without incident. (3-3-1d)

Do you tell them to remove jewelry and then consider that a warning? If not, why do it?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767541)

Since you chose to engage in that behavior, I saw no need to continue to take the high road.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767106)

At the risk of seeing another ramble and going against multiple PMs asking me not to engage you in logical debate, here goes nothing.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767168)

Jeff, this is my last post to you regarding thsi topic. You will undoubtedly take the last word.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767171)

Communicating with contestants is far different than giving one an advantage over another. I would rather emulate the best than accept the actions of those who violate ethics and rules.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767371)

I do. This was a HS game. Read the NFHS Code of Ethics in the current rule book - umpires who give one team an advantage over another have violated that covenant and displayed poor integrity and ethics. Again, I offer the play involving an umpire telling a defensive player to warn the pitcher that he will be called for a balk unless he changes his delivery. That play has been mentioned numerous times as acceptable.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767434)

Your need to insult is sad. I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other. I read the posts just fine.

Tim and RichMSN both spoke about warning a pitcher after seeing him do something that you know isn't right. (Otherwise, you are simply an OOO.) As I and many others here have stated before, it ether is a balk or it isn't. If it isn't and you feel the need to tell a player to do something to avoid balking then you are coaching. If you don't have the fortitude to call the balk then hang up the gear. Yes, we all miss balks and then stew over the reality of it. Warning a guy after that is just as awful. Call what you see. Let the coaches do their job.

I find it particularly funny that a number of threads involve members who insist that they aren't paid to coach and bemoan leagues that require explanations for balks, INT, OBS, etc. Now, they are silent. Hmmmm.

Yes Bob, we all have tolerances for what is ethical and not. As with many things in umpiring, acceptable behavior is evolving. At one time, you could argue just as vehemently as the antagonist. At one time, you could simply make your call and ignore the call for getting assistance. Old school, unwritten rules are slowly falling away from upper level baseball. You won't see a CWS umpire pick and choose which rules are worthy of enforcement. Those are the guys I emulate.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767542)

LOL! The few here who think that it is okay to tell a catcher to correct the mistakes his pitcher is doing or you will be forced to umpire are not close to matching his resume.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767550)

Really?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 767555)

Um ... WHAT does that have to do with telling the players to take off their jewelry?

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer (Post 767553)

I'll agree that Tim's response may have been ambiguous. But RichMSN pretty clearly is saying (I've put it in italics) that he'll warn a pitcher only when he is pitching legally. Are you going to continue to characterize this as warning pitchers instead of calling balks?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767560)

I don't warn a pitcher (directly or through an intermediary) who 'is close to balking'. That is being an OOO. If he balks, call it. If he didn't then it is a legal pitch.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 766834)

I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

Originally Posted by Tim C (Post 766800)

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767556)

Do I need to quote them again?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767556)

I did it once and you seem to have a problem understanding that Tim and RichMSN both stated that it is acceptable to prevent a pitcher from balking by alerting him to his rule breaking mechanics. Geesh.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767556)

I confine my baseball talk to the baseball forum. If you want to know what those sports tolerate, ask there.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 767556)

I have never told a HC that his AC is about to be ejected. I also don't warn coaches that if they keep it up they will be tossed. I call what I see or hear. Impartiality begins with the ability to make tough calls.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767563)

It apparently violates your personal moral code, and like Jeff, I have no problem with that. Just keep on keeping on, and hold on tight to that high road, it's windy.